Need some help identifying knocking sound in ej22

[scrap487]

So today I became the proud new owner of a 1999 legacy with an ej22... my first car with an ej22. I got it for a very reasonable price with the knowledge that I will be having to replace the motor; and I've had an ej22 sitting in my carport from a '92 LSI ready to go long before I ever got this car.

 

The motor has approx 230,000(not entirely sure, odometer quit working reliably after 185-190k). At start up cold idling the knock is undetectable, and even after its warm at idle it's not always present. under small load(c**t hair to 1/4 throttle it makes a horrible racket, under heavier load/acceleration and full throttle it goes away. To me it sounds like the bottom end is in trouble but isnt close to as loud as most of the ea81s/ea71s i've worked with that have bearings on their way out. I've driven this car approx 50 miles like this so far. Can pinging cause a similar noise? the previous owner said it started about 5-6 months before she stopped driving it entirely back around march, and I haven't even felt like putting a few bucks of supreme in the tank before I get a clue where to start on it. The check engine light is on, and has been on for ages, and her mechanic said it will likely keep coming on and off for the rest of the life of the car(I got this feeling her mechanic might have been a bit... out there.. though).

 

Any suggestions/help/comments/complaints/advice would be appreciated, main reason why I want to spend some time looking into this is because its my first ej22 and so far I'm really only familiar with the carbed ea series engines. That and the donor engine being from a 92 and this being a 99 I think it may take more than just an afternoon in the shop after work to complete that swap(any ideas/suggestions on snags I might run into on that would be greatly appreciated so I can plan ahead a bit better)

 

Thanks guys! I've been away from here for quite a while.

 

Also for anyone looking for a beat up 84 gl, I'm selling mine - check it out at http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?p=936388#post936388

[Olnick]

First thing that jumps to mind is a wiring nightmare trying to put an OBD1 engine in an OBD2 car!

[johnceggleston]

it would be way easier if you swapped in a 95 - 99 ej22. but you might make it work if you swap over the intake, assuming it fits. BUT the lack of an EGR will throw a code and that might keep you from passing a safety inspection. the 95 - 96 from an auto trans car will have the egr, 97-99 almost any ej22 will have the egr (a very, very few did not).

 

i would get a stethoscope from the parts store to try and locate the noise. it might be the tensioner on the t-belt. they can make a racket under load, i hear. and a t-belt job would give you another 100k assuming the bearings and rods are ok. but even if the engine failed soon thereafter you could still use the parts on the next engine.

 

ps : if the belt fails you will have bent valves.

Edited July 1, 2010 by johnceggleston

[idosubaru]

the check engine light on for the rest of the life of the car is crazy talk, you were right about that.

 

first thing that comes to mind is the timing belt tensioner. they make a rap/rap/rap sound that sounds very mechanical/metallic. they can be variable as well and come and go randomly or under different conditons (loads). if you pull the drivers side timing belt cover (only 3 10mm bolts) you *might* be able to see the tensioner. when they fail and make this noise, they visibly move as the load on the timing belt changes. this could be confused for something major. this noise would be at the front drivers side of the engine if you have a mechanics stethoscope.

 

this is a stretch but i thought i've heard mention once about oil pumps causing noise if the backing plate gets too loose.

 

automatics can have cracked flexplates but i'd suspect that wouldn't come and go as you're describing.

 

definitely want to make sure it's not piston slap, which is totally benign and the car can run indefinitely with it. but that's usually at start up and quiets down as it warms up so that's probably not it.

[scrap487]

no such thing as safety inspection here... only thing it needs to pass is a sniffer at the tail pipe. I have 2 other ej22 long blocks but I know almost nothing about them, I'm pretty sure the intake and everything will swap over onto the donor, I didnt notice any major differances.... if egr is needed, would i be able to swap the heads from the 99 onto the 92 motor? or is it really even necessary if I dont have to deal with any kind of inspection?

 

The knocking sound is slower heavy clacking, planning on pulling plugs on the injectors one at a time first to see if that changes anything but it does seem like it comes from the drivers side, not sure yet if its towards the front.

[GeneralDisorder]

no such thing as safety inspection here... only thing it needs to pass is a sniffer at the tail pipe.

 

Actually anything newer than '95 will be a computer hookup test. So the CEL will prevent you from passing. And in any case a CEL will prevent any car from passing regardless of OBD-II or not. If they see the light it's an instant fail. The first thing you need to do is buy an OBD-II scan tool.

 

As for the knocking sound - the '99 EJ22 would be a second gen and has solid lifters. Perhaps they need adjustment at that high mileage.

 

Other than that I would take a close look at all the timing belt components as they can make ugly noises when they are neglected.

 

Bottom end fail is possible but not very likely. I've seen stranger things at lower mileage though. Abuse/neglect can and will fail almost anything that to us normal Subaru owners would be nigh impossible just because we occasionally check fluids and generally know how to drive and watch gauges.

 

GD

[idosubaru]

GD is funny.

 

in 99 EJ22 went to Phase II so everything earlier is not going to be a simple swap. possible options:

 

swap the 99 wiring harness onto the old intake manifold then it's plug and play. phase II may have went from a MAF to MAP style and the idle control may differ - check into those, it's doable though on the EJ25's from Phase I to Phase II so it's doable with the EJ22 as well - just not sure what needs to happen or if possibly you'd be left with a ghost CEL. might want to find a couple older threads from the same Phase I to Phase II EJ25 swap and see what info you can glean there.

 

can he swap 99 heads onto the older blocks?

[Fairtax4me]

Most of everything I can think of has been covered here except maybe a loose crankshaft pulley. But there are plenty if other things not on the engine that can make noise. Heat shields are pretty famous for making some funky noises. It might also be the transmission.

 

I think if you find it does need an engine, the best solution would be to get one from a post 99 model car rather than trying to patch together this or that to make an older engine work.

[logic23]

Your 99 legacy is what we call a cross over. It has teh old body style with the new engine/electronics.

If you want to swap you engine to a phase 1 2.2 you will have to do a bit of work. Its not hard work just time consuming.

You cant just swap manifolds anything that easy. The phase 1 and 2 manifolds are totally different.

What you have to do is swap the wiring harness and components from a donor car. You have to use 99 obw or 99 GT only because of the transmission is different in the 98's.

The harness attaches to the fuse box, steering column, at computer, ecu, blower motors and a whole host of other things. To remove it you have to take out the dash (which is EASY) and pull the wiring harness from the engine compartment into the inside of the car. You have to take everything attached to the harness that is different than your 99. Once you swap the harness/ ecu you will have a plug and play for your phase 1 2.2.

[scrap487]

yeah, its a toss up, I really don't care about having to go through emissions, tags are good till 2011 and if it doesn't pass I can register it in a place that I dont have to deal with that for a few more bucks. I haven't had a chance to play with it yet and wont till next week... I can't wait.

 

I haven't been able to compare the motors side by side yet(car is in portland, motor is sitting couples hours away in washington under my parents carport), but the intake manifold on the 99 looks exactly as I remember it looking on the '92... what are the differances other than egr?

Edited July 2, 2010 by scrap487

[subaru360]

IAC is totally different. It won't work.

 

Options-

 

Get a phase 2 2.2 engine

 

Use just the older shortblock if your heads are good.

 

Get a 95+ intake manifold and 99 2.5 bulkhead harness.

[idosubaru]

. what are the differances other than egr?

i'd view it more like a different motor than i would the same motor with differences. the intakes are not interchangeable and the motor was somewhat redesigned as well. this is the one i was thinking of:

 

IAC is totally different. It won't work.

 

i believe the folks that have done it have idle issues.

 

if you still want to think about it i'd spend some time searching here, i know there's one or two folks that have done it and mentioned the issues with it.

[scrap487]

mmk... most of what comes up in searchs are people swapping ejs into ea series cars, but I'll spend more some more time searching later tonight after dark. I somehow get the impression that both phase 1 and phase 2 motors are present in 99 models, whats the best/easiest way to identify which motor I have?

 

I'll be visiting a junkyard on monday to see if I can find a 95+ intake and that wiring harness; if that fails I have 2 other blocks that aren't complete that I'll just swap the heads over too.

[logic23]

99 Outbacks and legacy GTs have the phase 1 Dual Over Head Cam>DOHC When looking at it head on it has a bow tie shape with 4 cams.

The 99 legacys and Foresters came with phase 2 engines. These are easiest to spot by the smooth valve covers with round sparkplug holes on the top(easy to get to) To a trained eye the electronics are different the biggest one being no mass airflow sensor.

When shoppping for intakes be aware there are two types with egr and without egr. I'm pretty sure your phase one early 90's 2.2 WONT have and Egr.

Sooooo since your 99 legacy is an automatic (right?) you will need to get a manifold from a 95-98 2.2 automatic then you can either:

drill/tap the head for an Egr

or

Set up the egr sensor,vacuum diaphragm and vacuum lines to fool the ECU into thinking there is an Egr set up. This works I did it on my OBW for several months>no CEL

So thats all the news I got...

[scrap487]

its a 5 speed manual transmission, not an automatic(sorry I may have forgot to mention, as that probably changes alot)

 

Thanks!

[logic23]

I think it broadens your list of donor cars to:

any 5 speed subaru. The main difference in the wiring harness is the security system. in the 99+ the security system is integrated in harness and has one small ecu/relay box to the right of the steering column VS the large (usually added on and zip tied in place) security ecu 95-98.

Im pretty sure all the sensors on the 5 speed are compatible with the earlier ecu's

Also you can get an intake without EGR since the 5 speeds didnt have EGR unless you get the ecu etc from a OBW or forester they had egrs regardless of transmission.

[johnceggleston]

i thought the 97 - 99 'almost' all had egr regardless of trans, in the outbacks and GTs at least, otherwise the swap rule would be ''an engine from a like trans car'', not ''from an auto trans car since they have the egr''.

[scrap487]

this car doesn't have EGR, and does have the smooth valve covers which stands out a lot against what I remember of 92(picking it up tomorrow night so I can start playing around).

 

I pulled the plug wires one cylinder at a time and it made absolutely no differance in the sound I'm hearing; pulling the plugs off the injectors would have taken a bit longer than the 2 minutes i had managed to scrounge together.

 

A friend of mine I work with who used to be a subaru mech years ago said it could also be the HLAs going bad, he has had that issue once before and said it sounded exactly rod knock; and also said that if that was the issue I may need to look at resealing the oil pump? what do you guys think? it's not a huge job to get to them, what would I look for when I pull them out(I've never torn down a motor with hydraulic lifters before, so I dont have any idea what to look for...dont tell anybody...)

[Fairtax4me]

Lucky for you these are incredibly easy to get to being located right on the rocker arm. Remove the valve cover, remove the rocker shaft (slowly), and then you can remove the lifters from the arms. There is a sequence for removing the bolts, I don't remember what it is off hand.

[scrap487]

mmk bit of searching got me the sequence and torque values for the rocker arms. I got the valve covers off, and then the rockers.... and it appears to have solid, nut/screw adjustable lifters(not hydraulic)??!? wasn't quite expecting that, is that correct or am I horribly misinformed on what I'm looking at?

 

so if they are mechanical I guess that almost rules valves out as the source of this knocking sound. I'll check the clearances and make sure nothing is incredibly off before putting it all back together though and report back later tonight.

 

Back to the motor swapping discussion... if I have a 90-94 block, I should be able to swap the 99/phase 2 heads on to it and then would the rest be easy plug and play as if I was just dropping in another phase 2 motor?

 

Thanks for bearing with me guys, I'm learning alot about EJs now and I look forward to being apart of this crowd... after I finish this project if I still have this '92 ej22 complete I plan on dropping it in my 86 fwd hatch(ea71)

 

Update: Didn't have feeler gauge handy but valve/rocker clearances felt about right. Everything's back together, let it run for a while, pulled injector plugs one at a time and with cyl #1 unplugged majority of the knocking/rattle went away on acceleration/higher rpms, but still definativie knocking could be heard at idle. #3 #2 #4 cylinders being unplugged had no effect. I'm curious what would cause something in the #1 cylinder to fail, isn't it first on the oil train, so lack of oil at one point in time would be more likely to effect 3 and 4 long before 1 or 2? Also after it warmed up, knocking at idle becomes louder but noise at acceleration/higher rpms lessens vs when cold it is the opposite, completely quiet idling and noisier at speed. I'm going to also pull the timing belt cover in the morning and have a look at things; any other things to check on just to make sure I rule everything else out before tearing down this motor?

Edited July 6, 2010 by scrap487

[Fairtax4me]

I don't recall which year they switched from hydraulic to solid lifters, but they did. For some odd reason.

 

But they can get out of adjustment, and often do, creating quite a bit of noise.

 

Could you remove the spark plug from number one and run it (with fuel injector unplugged) to see if that makes any difference?

[scrap487]

I totally missed everything GD said haha... so yeah mechanical lifters. I borrowed a code reader from schucks up the street, the 2 codes it had thrown was for cat system inefficiency and for the knock sensor; since clearing the codes the CEL has remained off since then.

 

Pulled the spark plug itself and the injector plug from number one cylinder... I should have figured but since I was half asleep I wasn't expecting it. Loud as hell... impossible to tell if the knock went away completely at idle. With the spark plug in but fuel injector unplugged the knock completely dissappears above idle.

 

if I end up not being able to reuse the heads on this motor, what intake do I need from 95+? 2.5 or 2.2? and I'm assuming 95-98 phase 1 correct?

 

Thanks!

[scrap487]

picked up all 3 ej22s I had sitting at my parents near white salmon today. One is complete intake and all from the 92 lsi, some cobwebs but turns over nice and smooth. the other two i have I fear may have suffered from a bit of condensation in the cylinders, they broke loose and turn but feel "dry", hard to turn by hand... how bad can it be and still be usable without complete rebuild? kind of a shame to pull the '92 motor apart for this, but I also realized I will need to find a new Y pipe as the early motors are dual port exhaust and the 99 is single port.

 

Planning to pull the motor out the car tomorrow after school, any bets on how long it should take? I pulled an ea82 out of a friends car about 2 weeks ago, went from running to sitting on the ground next to the car in about an hour and half and it seems like this ej has a whole lot less junk to deal with.

 

Stoked

[scrap487]

Well bummer, the 2 long blocks I had both had a fair amount of water find its way into them somehow, both turn over fine but both had at least one cylinder with rust caked on and some pitting.

 

Not going to tear apart the '92 engine, so I'm thinking more about trying to find a 2.5L block; seems like they should be everywhere and dirt cheap for one with HG issues. Guy I work with said splitting a block and rebuilding it completely is a huge waste of time, money and really time consuming, but from looking at it it doesn't seem overly complex and would be considerably cheaper than buying a good running phase II motor. Comments?

 

Going to spend tonight reading up about the 2.5L w/ 2.2 heads....

[scrap487]

Though I'd give an update on this so whoever goes searching can find some kind of meaning in this thread.

 

Ended up taking the motor to get rebuilt, sure enough #1 rod bearing was shot. Was going to have this motor rebuilt but had trouble sourcing the right rings in the timeframe I had... sooo the guy I had working on this happened to have a phase 1 ej25 block sitting around, so he put that together with my phase 2 ej22 heads.

 

Just got done dropping it in, and it runs friggin amazing. I have no idea what the CR is, the impression I got is it's pretty close to stock if not exactly that, but compared to the tired motor before it, its quite satisfying in the pants taking off. I haven't had a chance to wind it out yet but will here in a few when I go to get some food and gas.

 

Didn't really come across any issues(at least on my end as far as installations goes), although supposedly phase 2 ej22 sohc heads likely won't work on a phase 1 ej22 block without machining the pistons because the area dished out for the valves is differant.

 

:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: