jensen0510 Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Hey, This is a great forum, I'm hoping you guys can help me out a little. I just bought a 91 Legacy that doesn't run. The guy said it died while his son was driving down the road and it wouldn't restart after that. I went ahead and bought it. It has a 2.2 with AWD. I got it home (yes I flat towed it and I now know I shouldn't have, but it was less than a mile from his house to mine.) I hooked up a timing light and it is getting spark. I disconnected the fuel line and it is getting gas to the fuel rail. I've checked all the fuses and relays. My original guess when I was looking at the car, was that the timing belt either broke or it jumped a couple of teeth. After I came home and confirmed that this was a non interference engine, I went back and bought it. I've taken off both cam sprocket covers and after rotating the engine I'm pretty sure that what I'm seeing is telling me it has jumped a couple of teeth. When I rotate the engine so that both cam alignment marks are lined up where they should be, the white marks on the belt are 2 teeth off of the alignment mark on both sprockets. I haven't pulled the middle cover, but my guess is the cams are out of time with the crankshaft. Does this sound right to you guys? Please let me know if this makes sense, or if there is something else I might be overlooking. I'm really excited about getting this thing running, I just don't want to tear it down to find out It was something else simple. One more thing, when I crank it over, it won't hit a lick, just cranks until it drains the battery. Sorry this is so long:-\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lone500 Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 ya sounds like the timing is off. as far as i remember the white marks are incorrect for marking your timing. im sure you could do a search and find how to tweak the timing in some thread around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 ya sounds like the timing is off. as far as i remember the white marks are incorrect for marking your timing. im sure you could do a search and find how to tweak the timing in some thread around here. Yes lots written in the archives on this forum about how to set the timing. Use the "search" feature on this forum to read up on the subject, and how to precisely set the timing. My last Subie was a 91 Legacy. It was a great running car. The 2.2 motor is built really tough, and will run many many miles. Yes, you are correct in that it is a non interference motor, so if the timing is off, the valves will not get damaged. Hope you get the motor to run. Keep us posted, we like to hear success stories! If you run into additional problems, we are here to assist you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john in KY Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 May want to check for fuel pressure before tearing it down too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 When I rotate the engine so that both cam alignment marks are lined up where they should be, the white marks on the belt are 2 teeth off of the alignment mark on both sprockets. The white marks mean nothing at this point. Once you install a belt and run the engine those marks will only line up every umpteenth revolution (can't remember the number--someone posted it on here once!) Only way to be sure on the timing is to go ahead and open up the front end. And if you do that you might as well put on a new belt and do the entire front end service. I suppose the non-start situation could be any number of things, but I'm wondering if the cam and/or crank sensors are bad? Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyman03 Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 i had an almost exactly the same situation when i picked up my '91 (just last month) the guy said it didnt run hardly, if it did and sold it to me for cheaper than dirt (150$). I redid the timing and voila! she ran like a champ again!. Depending on the number of miles on the car, you probably should just re-do the timing with a new belt (OEM There by the way, the timing marks are perfect and belts are better), and water pump. Timing is rather easy if you've done it before. It was a much easier job with an extra set of hands. if you get an OEM belt, simply align the marks from the belt to the marks on the cams and crank (iirc) tension as you go when it was all said and done i spent 40 bucks total on my car and its running like a champ. there are tons of articles online on how to time, i even found one with pictures which for an idjit like myself worked out well.. -Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jensen0510 Posted July 15, 2010 Author Share Posted July 15, 2010 Thanks to everyone for all your responses. Correct me if I'm wrong but if the crank or cam sensor were bad, I didn't think it would get a spark at all. As for the fuel pressure, I tried pouring a little gas in in the intake, and it acted like it almost tried to fire one time, but that was it. I tried a couple of more times and it never hit again. I have done a number of timing belts so I'm not scared (the last one was a Yota Sequoia!!! Yikes), and I have found the info on the timing here. I'll make sure I get the Subaru belt. I'm not sure if I'll do the water pump. I don't know that I want to spend the money until I'm sure I can get it to run. I thought I read on here that you can set the timing and then start it before you put it back together. Is this true, I would guess you would just put the crank pulley back on and try to start without the accessories hooked up. I'm also wondering if I have to remove the fans and the radiator to do this job? I'm guessing yes to the fans, but it would be easier if I didn't have to pull the radiator. I'll keep you posted, I'm hoping to get the belt and give it a try this weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Yeah, I think you're right about the cam/crank sensors. And yes, you can test start it before you button it up. Yes to the fan removal. You don't have to take the radiator out but it's not that difficult and it's nice to have the extra room to work. If you leave it in be sure to protect it with cardboard or plywood. While you're in there check your idlers for sure. Most common one to fail is the cogged one next to the waterpump. Check your oil pump for leakage. Cam & crank seals are relatively cheap and easy to do too. Good luck, hope all goes well and do keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch de la Brat Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Its actually easier to remove the radiator and fans than it is to remove the fans alone, and you get another couple inches to work with. Just drain your coolant into clean container, so you can reuse it, and the radiator pops out with just 2 bolts and the removal of the upper radiator hose. You may need to pull the reservoir, but that's just one bolt on the bracket that holds it in. Don't forget to unplug your fans before you yank the radiator out too far.. Twitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 to each thier own, but i have never pulled the radiator to do timing on any Subaru. Sure, it will give you a small bit of extra room, but is it really worth the hassle of draining, refilling and burping??? I guess if you have large hands and need that extra space it might make sense, but for me...nah, dont need it & less work to leave the rad in. to the original poster - if you just want to verify that it will indeed start/run you can reuse the old belt, reset timing & try starting it - if it does start & run, then go get a good timing kit (pulleys, etc), new belt, water pump & the seals, do the job right, button it up and have fun driving your cheap Subaru for many miles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 I have found the info on the timing here. I'll make sure I get the Subaru belt. I'm not sure if I'll do the water pump. I don't know that I want to spend the money until I'm sure I can get it to run. just to be sure, the timing marks are NOT the arrows or dots, they are all hash marks. links below in my signature, especially page 2 in the one with pics. you can get a good kit on ebay from "theimportexperts". at auto zone, the the california belt, 105k interval, is cheaper than the 'fed' belt, 60k interval. the cal belt will fit and work on your car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jensen0510 Posted July 15, 2010 Author Share Posted July 15, 2010 When I look at Autozone, the only option it shows is the Dayco belt for $42. How do I find the Cali belt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jensen0510 Posted July 15, 2010 Author Share Posted July 15, 2010 I just checked advance auto parts......they show the same part number for both with the same price. it's also the same part and the same price as Auto-zone. I'm guessing they all sell the same belt for Cali and the rest of us. I'm ready to get home and get it torn down so I can see if it is really out of time or not. If not, I guess I start scratching my head again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) I just checked advance auto parts......they show the same part number for both . dayco timing belt, 105k, 28$ @ advance auto, part number: 95254 http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Timing-Belt-Dayco_18280463-P_161_R|GRP60010_709869476___ Dayco Timing Belt Part No. 95254 Warranty Timing Belt (Camshaft) (Calif.); Service Interval: 105,000 Normal; Water Pump Driven by Timing Belt | View Customer Q&A Be the first to write a review | View Customer Q&A Shipping: In Stock Pick Up in Store: Check Availability $27.99 Quantity Check a Store near you Timing Belt (Camshaft) (Calif.); Service Interval: 105,000 Normal; Water Pump Driven by Timing Belt Yes, this part fits your 1995 Subaru Legacy L. Change vehicle Edited July 15, 2010 by johnceggleston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) i would also just reuse the belt to see if you get it to run. Dont spend money on a new belt unless you know its going to run. Run it til it breaks, carry a spare belt with you and pop it on and away you go. Timing belts on these are not a necessary repair in my book, if it break, no damage. I have never removed the fans or the radiator when setting the timing belt on. Its kinda tight fit between the fan shroud sharp metal, but removal is not necessary. If it did jump timing, then you need a NEW TENSIONER it has done something to show it may be failing.....or else the timinig jump was just a improper install to begin with. If you throw a new belt on, and dont replace the tensioner, it may just jump again.... Great design on the early Ej22, are you reading this Subaru? sure cannot say that about the newer interference stuff, but to each his own. Edited July 15, 2010 by bheinen74 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jensen0510 Posted July 15, 2010 Author Share Posted July 15, 2010 Thanks, I did find the Cali belt when I looked under a 95 model. it's $27.99, instead of 42.99.....weird, but it works for me I'm planning to re-use the old belt to see if I can get it running. I don't want to spend any more on it than I have to until I hear it run and test out the rest of the drivetrain. I'm into it for $400 (what I paid) and i figure if I can get it running and throw some used tires on it I'll have really cheap transportation. I'm trying to get rid of my car payments so as soon as it's running the Jeep Wrangler goes up for sale. I'll miss the jeep, but I'm excited about the Legacy, just hope I can breath life into it. One other question, what is the best way to test the fuel pressure? I'm assuming there is a gauge, what kind and where do I get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 do yourself a favor when you have the crank pulley off the car. paint a timing mark on it in the 12 o'clock position, 180* away from the key way. (when setting the timing belt the crank key way is down in the 6 o'clock position.) that way if you have doubts about your timing being correct or the car still will not start and every one here, including me, is telling you that the timing is off and you used the wrong marks, you can check the crank position without pulling the crank pulley. good luck, and keep us informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jensen0510 Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 Here's the latest after checking the timing belt. The timing belt is fine and hasn't skipped. Everything lines up perfect. I had checked the spark with a timing light and knew it was getting voltage sent to the plug. I decided to pull a plug and see what it looked like. OMG, there is no telling how long those plugs have been in the car!!! I hooked it to the wire and grounded it while a friend cranked the car over......it was the smallest spark I've ever seen come from a plug. They were all solid black. On the good side there was at least gas making it to the cylinders. At this point I'm going to try replacing the plugs and the battery (it's shot as well) Wish me luck and feel free to jump in if you think of anything else I should look at. Thanks for all the advice so far !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Suggest you use NGK plugs--basic coppers are just fine and very reasonably priced. Also suggest you change the plug wires too--use Subaru OEM, may be a bit pricey but well worth the investment. Do you still have the front end opened up? Be a great time to check the condition of your idlers and tensioner, re-seal the oil pump and maybe even install new cam & crank seals. And then there's always the water pump too!!! Anyway, good going and good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 definitely use the NGK's - BKR6E-11 - these are what are recommended by Subaru in the owners manual (1990 version). gap is recommended between .039 & .043 in. I usually set mine at about .041 carefully check the wires over for any worn/frayed spots - it is usually recommended to use OEM wires for replacements (my personal experience with aftermarket wires has been ok - but others have had major problems - your choice, just be aware of possible issues w/aftermarkets) just out of curiosity - is there a CEL if you turn the key to on and let it sit for a moment??? (ie: after the momentary "self test" lighting goes out) If there is, it would be a wise move to read what is stored - may give more insight into why the car just "died"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jensen0510 Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 Well, I have new plugs, I have a new battery. I triple checked the timing and it is spot on. I checked the codes and pulled a code 22 for the knock sensor. I'm getting fuel, it's getting spark. it sounds like it's trying to at least hit now, I'm not sure where to go from here....HELP please!!! Will the knock sensor keep it from running? I have no experience with this part. Thanks for all the suggestions so far!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jensen0510 Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 I think we have a winner....has anyone ever seen a knock sensor melt? All the plastic melted off the sensor and ran down onto the block. It looks like a candle melted....CRAZY!!! I'm off to get a new one and see if this POS will run. I'll update with the results soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lone500 Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 ya a knock sensor will make it run like hell. puting my engine back in my car the knocksensor wire got messed up and it ran but ran with no performance at all. so a new knocksensor should help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Wait a minute. If it's a POS why are you trying to get it running?!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jensen0510 Posted July 17, 2010 Author Share Posted July 17, 2010 So far it is a POS, when I get it running it will be FANTASTIC. I bought the car for $400. I still haven't heard it run and I still don't know if I can get it running, I'm seeing evidence (the knock sensor and a new radiator) of an extreme overheating event. I guess we will see. Not meaning to knock on the Subaru, this is my first experience with one and I must say that is has survived it's first 240,000 miles much better than most cars would. I'm starting to have a little fear that it may not be worth the $400 I spent, but I guess we will find out soon enough Still hopeful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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