Opinions on 4EAT vs 5MT, whose driven both?

[superu]

So I have a 5MT in my strut-lifted 95 legacy, running 3.90 final, but I'm thinking of swapping to a 4EAT (probly 4.11, maybe 4.44 final). I think it would be better for towing (particularly backing and positioning a camp trailer off pavement in the woods) and off road (particularly the steeper stuff), but I'm kind of a die hard manual transmission guy.

 

Anyhoo, I'd like driving impressions of basically the same rig across transmissions (like if you've driven different transmissions in a basically same trimline, model, etc...).

 

ALSO, I've seen folks to the 4EAT to 5MT tranny swap, but I can't really find (through a cursory search) anyone who has gone from stick to auto.

 

thanks,

-mark-

 

PS, I'm posting similarly in the retrofit forum also..

[rweddy]

I would like to know also. I am thinking about getting a 1st generation outback legacy & swaping a 2.2 but I am concered because most automatics I have drive have been quite slow.

[hankosolder2]

I think that's going to be a MUCH harder swap than going in the other direction- that is, converting an AT car to 5MT. You'd have to install a TCU, tie in to the wiring harness for the main ECM (or whatever subaru's acronym for engine control computer is) add a trans cooler (your rad will probably not have the extra pipes unless it is a universal replacement.) ETC, etc.

 

I'm exclusively a 5MT person , but I think that as autos go, the 4EAT is pretty good- it does downshift on demand, it's pretty smooth and it's a durable tranny given proper maintainence. I'd almost swear that the auto was a bit hotter off the line and quieter at highway speeds- taller gearing when locked up in 4th. It kind of bogs when it hits 2nd gear though. (Admittedly, that's comparing different generations of Legacies.)

 

Nathan

[nipper]

Let me ask the first question.

 

What kind of driving do you do and what type do you plan on doing?

[SuBrat84]

I think it would be better for towing (particularly backing and positioning a camp trailer off pavement in the woods) and off road (particularly the steeper stuff), but I'm kind of a die hard manual transmission guy.

 

The closest vehicles I have to compare were my brothers 02 Impreza 2.5 RS (5MT) and my 98 Legacy 2.5GT (4EAT.) The MT I felt had better torque, acceleration, handling, and maybe even top-speed due to the 5th gear. I know the AT is going to be producing a bit more heat especially towing and/or wheeling. While it does make it a little easier to get over some of the "Bumps" especially with a camp trailer.. You're going to be replacing your fluid a lot more frequently.. and having to keep a better eye on the condition of the transmission to help prevent "Torque bind" that is a lot more common in an overheated AT vs. an MT. I say, if you're anywhere decent with the manual then stick with it. I would never have any automatics car if I could help it. I do think it would be a tough swap having to worry about wiring in the TCU, the Pedal cluster, the shifter cluster, etc.

Edited July 26, 2010 by SuBrat84
grammer

[nipper]

Auto is much more superior for towing. As long as you have a cooler and a temp gauge fluid is not an issue. It does have to be changed more often but so will brakes etc.

 

Also an auto actually makes more torque then a manual. the torque converter has a multiplier of 2.5 at takeoff then a manual. With a manual when towing you should not be in top gear on either auto or manual. Towing with a manual you will be very very hard on the clutch.

 

Very few if any auto mfg's recomend towing with a manual. manuals can also get torque bind too.

[idosubaru]

i've driven both in XT6 and multiple EJ stuff. if i could only have one, i'd prefer an automatic because i'm lazy and dont' like having a stick in traffic, when i'm drinking my coffee, on the cell phone, or towing. auto's with the duty C mod are excellent for the off road i'm doing - but mine is all functional/utilitarian, not play/hobby/rock crawl kind of stuff.

[subaru360]

I driven, many, many gen 2 legacys with both 5 speed and auto. The auto is way better for towing and offroad simply because you can 2 foot it and have better control.

 

5 speed to auto is a tough swap. Best way to do it is to get a whole bulkhead harness. The tcm adds a lot of wiring.

[nipper]

i've driven both in XT6 and multiple EJ stuff. if i could only have one, i'd prefer an automatic because i'm lazy and dont' like having a stick in traffic, when i'm drinking my coffee, on the cell phone, or towing. auto's with the duty C mod are excellent for the off road i'm doing - but mine is all functional/utilitarian, not play/hobby/rock crawl kind of stuff.

 

 

But that is the true test of being an expert on a manual. Back in college it was a cell phone, a cup of coffe, and a "hand rolled" cigerette, and this was in a VW beetle that did not have blutooth or cup holders

[bulwnkl]

I agree with nipper and grossgary that an A/T is significantly better for towing and traffic, and if you get/have/use one of the A/Ts with VTD which utilizes a planetary center diff (like on the turbo Baja starting in '05, IIRC?), they're also significantly better off-road and on snow & ice IMO.

 

I occasionally have thought I'd like an M/T, to avoid generating heat towing things up mountains for example, but the advantages of an A/T just when starting a load are well worth the trade-off.

[TheLoyale]

i've driven both in XT6 and multiple EJ stuff. if i could only have one, i'd prefer an automatic because i'm lazy and dont' like having a stick in traffic, when i'm drinking my coffee, on the cell phone, or towing. auto's with the duty C mod are excellent for the off road i'm doing - but mine is all functional/utilitarian, not play/hobby/rock crawl kind of stuff.

 

What is a "Duty C Mod" ?

[thatswhatshesaid]

What is a "Duty C Mod" ?

 

It's a switch that electronically "locks up" the AWD unit like a true 4WD.

[thatswhatshesaid]

And it can only be installed in a 4EAT

[TheLoyale]

Cool! Sounds like the next step for TW10.

 

Are there any right ups on it or threads?

 

-Tom

[idosubaru]

Are there any right ups on it or threads?

yes.

[Twitch de la Brat]

I've driven both in a first gen Legacy, same car actually...

 

The auto had great pickup when it came to passing on the freeway/highway.

The 4EAT's are very good at picking up when you want to pass, "get on it",

etc.

Off the line it was a bit slower, but that's only because of the wind up time

required to get all the parts moving.

When it came to driving in general, they were very close to each other in that

aspect.

 

The 5 speed is a lot more fun to drive, personally, but it does sometimes get

tiresome in heavy traffic or in stop and go stuff.

Now with the five speed you can anticipate the hill, instead of reacting to it

as the auto does.

 

So between the two, I think the 4EAT would be the better tranny for

towing/offroading, as long as you have a good cooler and maybe a brake

controller for the trailer.

 

Now as for swapping 5MT to 4EAT that's a big can o'worms there.

Lots of wiring has to be swapped in, the TCU, the ignition interlock, possibly

the ECU, you'll have to run a wiring loom for the transmission alone...

 

It would be much easier and most likely cheaper in the long run to just buy a

car with the 4EAT and keep your other car your dd.

Lifts are easily transferred and you wouldn't need to rewire your dash.

 

Twitch

 

PS: Sorry for the novel...

[johnceggleston]

Are there any right ups on it or threads?

 

-Tom

 

search for words like "duty, switch, locked, install, 4wd*,tcu*, ..." i'll think of some others.

 

(the instructions talk about switching the wire that goes to the duty c through the main trans wire connector at the rear of the engine. but the wiring will be easier if you cut and switch the wire at the TCU under the dash.)

 

be sure to read a lot of the threads not just the one telling you how to do it. there is a potential down side to this mod, i think, especially if you forget and leave it on all the time.

[TheLoyale]

I did some searching and found that doing this might end up burning up the solenoid if used to much. So just let me get this straight, switching this solenoid would allow for 50/50 Torque split like the older 4WD systems onto an AWD trans which is like 35/65?

 

 

Not trying to change the topic at hand (Sorry)

 

-Tom

[johnceggleston]

I did some searching and found that doing this might end up burning up the solenoid if used to much. So just let me get this straight, switching this solenoid would allow for 50/50 Torque split like the older 4WD systems onto an AWD trans which is like 35/65?

 

 

Not trying to change the topic at hand (Sorry)

 

-Tom

 

even at maximum demand, the transfer clutch allows for enough slip between front and rear to avoid torque bind. when the switch is installed and activated there is no slip. the front and rear wheels turn exactly the same like a welded rear differential. this causes torque bind unless you are on snow, ice, gravel, sand or the like.

 

did you read these:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=50264

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=69794&highlight=duty%2C+switch%2C+locked%2C

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=65716&highlight=duty+solenoid

[idosubaru]

I did some searching and found that doing this might end up burning up the solenoid if used to much.

might post in that thread rather than here. user error will burn it up - use it properly and it'll be fine. if you're prone to forget and not pay attention or do bad wiring (although it's only one wire) this probably isn't a good idea.

 

i think it typically goes like this - folks that don't want to do it claim it's bad and want you to be in their boat. the rest that have been doing it for years have never had a problem except one person who admittedly left it on.

 

if a trans failure occurs it will be because something was already weak in a 10+ year old system, not because of a properly installed and used switch.

[TheLoyale]

I will totally check those threads out, and thanks for the info on the diff. Thanks!

 

Gary, I can understand that thanks for clearing that up. Yeah I don't forget nor abuse things like that and would only use it in mud, snow etc. and then turn it off. Basically I look at this mod for being a helper off-road rather then relying on the AWD system its self.

 

I will post in those threads if I have any more questions after reading them, thank you

 

-Tom

[nipper]

I did some searching and found that doing this might end up burning up the solenoid if used to much. So just let me get this straight, switching this solenoid would allow for 50/50 Torque split like the older 4WD systems onto an AWD trans which is like 35/65?

 

 

Not trying to change the topic at hand (Sorry)

 

-Tom

 

 

Whenever you see the word "Duty Solenoid" it mean that is cycles on and off many times a minute. They are not designed to be constantly powered. Now some people have not had any issues, but let the buyer beware.

[logic23]

I had done a manual to auto swap. The bulkhead harness, igniton switch assembly, ABS module, ecu,pedal cluster and a small section of wiring that goes from the passengers side pillar to the shifter.

Its good to have a donar car so that you can get all the small stuff.

Im not sure if 95s were set up to be both.

It was harder that the auto>5speed.

If you have questions i have the procedure memorized

[Twitch de la Brat]

I had done a manual to auto swap. The bulkhead harness, igniton switch assembly, ABS module, ecu,pedal cluster and a small section of wiring that goes from the passengers side pillar to the shifter.

Its good to have a donar car so that you can get all the small stuff.

Im not sure if 95s were set up to be both.

It was harder that the auto>5speed.

If you have questions i have the procedure memorized

 

Wow you're brave.

But I agree, the 5sp to auto swap is BY FAR harder than the auto to 5sp.

Also its in your best interest to have a parts car sitting by to easily get parts

off of, as I had to do this often when doing my swap.

 

Twitch

[logic23]

It was one of those " i wonder if i can do it" things. Ended up with a 5speed in my OBW limited and the customer now has a 99 auto in her 99 legGT.

the swap was take everything connected to/ having to do with the auto and put it in the GT. I even swapped relays just in case. The only thing that actually needed to be added was the wiring to shifter, light and shift lock solenoid. If you are tricky you can cut it out of the loom and remove the wires with their factory ends out of the plug at the passengers pillar. Then you just snap them into the empty slots in the 5 speeds plug and presto.....factoy wiring, no splices.

Its good to stay away from splices... they are always the point of failure.