Adding 2 Cylinders

[jgrote]

So I have decided to be the first one over at SF.ORG to do an H6 swap. I've read through RS25, Nasioc, ect, but still have a few unanswered questions. Firstly, does anyone know someone who will merge an SVX harness into a 99 forester? I bought a running donor SVX for the swap, so I should have all the needed parts. I don't really want to run standalone if I don't have to, but may end up going that way.

 

Secondly, I seem to be the first to want to keep an A/T in my swap. Anybody know just how involved getting the SVX ECU and Fozzy TCU to talk will be?

 

Once I get the SVX torn down and start collecting parts for cooling and A/C, I will start a build thread over at SF.ORG. I hope to be the first successful a/t 3.3 foz in the U.S. The mechanics of shoehorning this motor in is no biggie, but I just want to have an idea of where I'm going on the wiring before I take my Fozzy apart.

[Turbone]

There have been some EG33 swaps into Legacy's and Imp's, I dont think it will be that big a problem in a Foz.

You might be able to use the SVX TCU, it might be close to the same as the Foz's or vice versus. You might be able to find the TCU pinout over at http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=2

[kiwi subbie]

Most guys ditch the A/C because there is very little room with the EG33 being fitted into the earyer shape legacy/impreza shell. Im guessing there wouldnt be much room aswell in the Forester engine bay?

[987687]

If you search the net there are some pretty good writeups on it. You will have to at least move the rad fans to pusher fans on the front of the rad. Some cars have to have the rad moved forward even and have the support cut and welded. But it's been done time and time again, the info is out there.

No idea about the a/t though...

[ShawnW]

I have helped with a 3.0 Swap and I truly think this is the way to go. Its going to be a lot easier to use its Auto trans as well because you could just use the entire engine and transmission harness. Finding a 2001 Outback that has been wrecked is going to be as easy as finding an SVX was IMO. Klodes salvage auction would be a great place to start.

 

Honestly I have to ask why though. The Forester is available in a turbo model and is fantastic this way.

 

When I helped with the 3.0 swap it was for a gutted, caged, impreza being used for RallyX and eventually Rally America. He needs torque and it fits the bill nicely.

[jgrote]

I will address the "why would you" question first, just to get it out of the way. I want to and I have a donor car. Wrecked 01-02 leggy 3.0 sell on copart for about 3k. It is a little easier a swap, just too rich for my blood. Also, they never made an SF Forester XT. I want low end torque for off road use, so I will use this motor. Custom rad and condenser is not a problem. I am able to do the merge, but I would like to farm this out just because of time. And for the last reason, I will be FIRST.

 

Now for more research.....

[92_rugby_subie]

And for the last reason, I will be FIRST.

 

Now for more research.....

 

 

 

Ha, this is bad rump roast

Just throwing in my 2 cents worth:rolleyes:

 

Wanna see finished product:grin:

[ShawnW]

Im not saying you shouldn't do it. The motor is robust. Its huge though and sometimes there is a reason that you will be the first to take on a project.

 

I am willing to cut down the harness to the minimum for $400 if you need help with that. I have done a wiring chop for a couple vanagons that used this motor.

[jgrote]

So after LOTS of research, I have found out nobody has figured out a way to hook a gen2 A/T to an ODB1 harness. It seem as if I will need to run a dual ECU setup, hooking up all the needed sensors to keep my oem ECU happy, while letting a standalone run the engine. I do not like this option. The next option is to buy a gen 1 transmission. This will essentially allow me to run it like it's an SVX with a 4.44 swap. Budfreak on http://svxworldforums.com/ sells this swap as basicly a plug and play swap. I may need ecutune to play with my TCU a little too. This seems to be a viable option. I measured the trans in both cars, and the are very close. I still have not checked how the mount to the cross member yet. I will then just need to splice my body harness into the harness of the SVX for a/c, lights, cruise, etc.

 

Anyone have a couple of 4eat's laying around to check to see if the cross member mounting looks the same?

[Numbchux]

Wow, I don't usually check the transplants section.

 

 

first off, I HIGHLY doubt that you would be the first to SVX swap a forester. not to rain on your parade or anything, but it's not an uncommon swap into other platforms.....essentially identical project to an impreza swap.

 

 

Next, what year is your forester? I don't see any reason why your TCU wouldn't work. most of the sensors are standalone. but I'll have to look for sure. Don't have time now, but I'll try to look later tonight.

 

only concern is the rpm signal, as it's calibrated differently. but you can get a Tach Signal Divider that would correct that. just have to get your TCU signal after the Divider.

 

 

 

I've done the wiring for probably 8 EG33 swaps, most into GC imprezas (which would be almost identical to your forester), but a couple Legacies. I even have an extra Tach Signal Divider here on my desk (I was planning on putting a 4-cyl digi dash in my XT6....but that isn't going to happen)

 

A/C would be very difficult, but possible. with the EG in there, there isn't much room for radiator and fans, much less a condenser as well.....unless you aren't attached to your bumper.

 

 

Also, as tempting as it sounds, I have heard specific negative reviews of ECUtune setups from a very reputable source. Save your money, IMHO.

Edited August 5, 2010 by Numbchux

[jgrote]

I was hoping you would chime in. Once I had gathered all the facts I could, I was going to contact you. I am just not quite that far along yet. I have been reading quite a lot on all of the forums, and have not found anyone that has successfully used a gen 2 4EAT. I am hoping it's possible. I know htrdd is close, but not running yet. I am not looking to mod this motor, but really just doing this for the fun off it. My fozzy (99 by the way) is in need of some motor work, so I thought this would be a good time. And FYI, no one over at SF.org has done it yet, so I will be the first of that crowd. I am not worried about physically fitting it in there. This is not my first shoehorn job, just my first big wiring job. I will do the wiring myself, but I may need some "consulting" help from you. I will pay for your time and expertise of course. Free info is rarely good, and good info is rarely free.

[ydeardorff]

:)Im looking at installing an EG3.3 in my kit car.

I agree about the price of good info. Unfortunately I just wasnt counting on the "info" costing me more than my transmission.

[jgrote]

:)Im looking at installing an EG3.3 in my kit car.

I agree about the price of good info. Unfortunately I just wasnt counting on the "info" costing me more than my transmission.

 

 

What ind of kit car are you doing? Will it have a VW trans? I've always enjoyed doing those cars. Getting these motors to run with nothing but a donor car and lots of wire cutting isn't too bad.

[Numbchux]

I will do the wiring myself, but I may need some "consulting" help from you. I will pay for your time and expertise of course. Free info is rarely good, and good info is rarely free.

 

Sorry....done doing that. did it twice, and both times I spent more time on the phone trying to explain it than it would have taken to just do it myself on my own schedule. if you have questions, feel free to post them here and I'll offer my insight when I can, but that's about it. :-\

 

 

 

I just spent a few minutes looking over diagrams.....The only thing that I see that would cause an issue using a newer TCU is the "torque control" wires. The SVX only has one signal wire from the ECU, and the newer systems have 3 (torque control signal 1 and 2, and torque control cut signal). the chart says all these pins would read 5v....so I don't know what that means. Everything else would work just fine (TPS signal range is the same, tach signal could be modified, and all other sensors would not be effected by the swap).

[ydeardorff]

What ind of kit car are you doing? Will it have a VW trans? I've always enjoyed doing those cars. Getting these motors to run with nothing but a donor car and lots of wire cutting isn't too bad.

 

Its a Sterling Kit car.

The VW lump will be removed in favor of the SVX engine strapped to an impreza 5 speed.

Im using a painless wiring harness. And frnakly only need enough wires connected to make the engine run like it should.

Even the A/C system will be aftermarket, so the ECU would only need to control the engine, and send a signal to the tach.

 

But, 1800 lb car, + 240hp motor =

[jgrote]

Today was a good day for cutting things up. I got everything connected to the motor disconnected and drained. I don't want to pull the intake/exhaust until the motor is actually ready to come out. I even sold a few parts today. Httrdd over on RS25 got his running today, so that makes me want to hurry up. He is keeping a A/T in a 99 leggy, so if he can get his to shift correctly, I know I'll be good. But MY GOD it's hot here. The heat slows things down significantly.

[Slamngears5]

Coming from a former SVX owner you dont want a stock or rebuilt SVX 4eat i had 2 explode on me and ive heard of several others going out i would just take the extra time now to put a better trans in my theory is you can make anything work with enough time and money lol

[jgrote]

Coming from a former SVX owner you dont want a stock or rebuilt SVX 4eat i had 2 explode on me and ive heard of several others going out i would just take the extra time now to put a better trans in my theory is you can make anything work with enough time and money lol

 

If I can't make my trans work, I won't go with an SVX trans. I will need a phase 1 trans out of a leggy gt to mate up with the correct ratio for my rear. I am still waiting to see if httrdd can get his running. He's swapping into a 99 leggy and attempting to keep his stock 4EAT. See here:

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f145/t129706-h6-lgt-go-fast-project.html

[eulogious]

Wow, I wish I would have seen this a little earlier, I might be of some assistance.

 

Here's some good docs on the 4eat phase 1 and phase 2.

 

http://www.endwrench.com/current/winter04/4eat1b.pdf

 

http://www.endwrench.com/pdf/feb2004pdf/4EATPhase2.pdf

 

So after reading about the phase 2 and trying to figure out what the torque control does and why the ECU needs it, I found this:

 

Engine Torque Control

Engine torque control is performed by the engine

control module, which lowers the engine torque by

retarding the engine ignition timing and cutting the fuel

supply, reducing shift shock.

While shifting is in progress, the TCM detects the

brake and clutch engagement and release conditions by

comparing the turbine sensor signal and the speed sensor

signals. The TCM outputs a signal to the ECM to reduce

the torque when set conditions are reached.

 

So all it does is retard the timing to prevent shift shock. Not a big deal if this doesn't happen I would think. So now the next question is, what will the ECU do if it doesn't get that signal? Well, from my FSM's that I have (a 1996 legacy, it's the only one that had the trouble shooting section in it so I could see what the symptoms are due to a lack of a torque control signal, but it's ODBII, so it should still be the same...) it looks like all that will happen is poor acceleration. It also looks like the signal it receives is just 5v... So you might be able to fool it by just sending the ECU a 5 volt signal all the time? I don't know exactly how the torque control signals is interpreted by the ECU, but I am sure you could either just run 5v to it and see what happens, and then remove the 5v and see what happens. You could probably just add in some resistors to get the voltage down to where it needs to be from 12v. It doesn't require alot of amperage for the circuit to work, so resistors should work fine in dropping the voltage. But this is just dealing with the engine running, and not with the trans actually shifting and acting normal without the torque control cut signal or mass airflow signal. That's a whole other ball of wax.

 

Now the TCU get's 3 input signals actually (if you couldn't tell from above ) from the ECU. Engine RPM, torque control cut, and mass airflow signal. After looking up in the trouble shooting section, the TCU does not do anything weird if it does not get the torque control cut signal, or the mass airflow signal. There is no "Trouble Symptoms" listed for either of these signals, but there is one for the engine RPM signal. So this would lead me to believe that the TCU will just ignore the errors for the torque control signal and the mass airflow signal and function just fine.

 

Now another option for you would be to mod a legacy/svx TCU, then it wouldn't matter. And you wouldn't have to pay ecutune to play with your TCU. I have a modded TCU right now in my car, and the only thing that it needs is the engine RPM, other than that it's a separate subsystem all by itself. Having a EG33 is not an issue either. You can make the TCU think it's using a 6 cylinder by just changing a variable, so that's not an issue if you go this route. You can also change anything you want to in the ROM itself as well. But it's an intense project to take on, ontop of the engine swap. But I LOVE my paddle shifters!

 

Granted mine is for a 1990 Loyale with a "phase 0" 4eat, but I don't see what really would have changed in the transmissions inter workings that it would need a "torque control" signal or a mass airflow signal to shift and act normal. But you could add in the paddle shifters and make a really cool, fun project out of it, especially with that EG33 behind it, and not have to worry about any other signals...

 

The only thing that I would be worried about is how the ECU will act without the torque control cut signal, but you might be able to trick it into working. Let us know how it goes man!

[jgrote]

Thank you for all your research. I am trying to do all the homework first before I tear into my car, as to not have it down while I "learn" how to do this. I will be running the SVX ecu, I am not too worried about giving 5v to the ECU. All I need to do is figure out how to make the trans happy. I will have a MAF, so I might as well hook that wire up. Engine RPM shouldn't be a big deal either, as I assume the stock ECU of the SVX must already have an RPM wire to the stock transmission. So I guess hook up that one and see what happens? Although, I am very interested in a modified phase1 TCU to control a phase 2 trans, because that would make cutting the harness up much easier.

[eulogious]

Here's the link to my paddle shifter build thread. That will have all the info you need about modding a phase 1 tcu.

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=110222&highlight=paddle+shifter

 

I am curious on way ecutune and IPT said that you can not put a phase 2 4eat up to a odb1 car. I would really like to know what changed specifically in the trans that would make it not function without those 2 extra wires. Doesn't really add up. Or maybe they are referring to the TCU being a phase 2 and that it wouldn't talk to an odbI car correctly? That would make more sense. But you should just be able to swap a phase 1 and phase 2 tcu, and the trans should still shift fine and act normal. That is unless they added something physically to the trans that would make it not work properly without having those wires.

 

So unless they completely rewrote the firmware, I don't see why the trans would go into limp mode to prevent excessive shift, . That's a little overkill for the problem. Like a sledge hammer to kill a fly. But I could be wrong... I am not all that familiar with odbII stuff.

 

If you have any question on modding the TCU, just feel free to ask, I will help where I can. This looks like it should be a fun project

[Numbchux]

I assume the stock ECU of the SVX must already have an RPM wire to the stock transmission.

 

as I mentioned earlier in the thread. you will need a signal modulator to make it work correctly. this is the same signal wire as your tachometer, and it works by sending one pulse per ignition fire. which means it happens more often per revolution on a 6-cyl.

 

the result is, your tach will say 6k rpms if the engine is only doing 4k. Which will also mean the TCU would think you're at redline when you're only at 4k.

 

But, get a signal modulator/divider, and I guarantee it will work. I have used this one in a few EG33 swaps, and will be using one in my GM 4.3 -> toyota 4runner swap. http://myplace.frontier.com/~vze7erz1/id1.html#tsdmod

 

 

I didn't think to look at the diagnostics section. I have FSMs for the SVX and many newer cars as well. when I get back to town (away at a rally now) I'll look it up and see what I find. IF it is a 5v on/off signal. you may be able to give the ECU what it needs from one of those signal wires on the forester TCU.

 

 

 

to "Slamngears5". the SVX 4EAT is identical, mechanically, to any other phase 1 4EAT. the only reason they fail more often is the massive torque put out by the EG33 combined with the substantial weight of the SVX. a used one will have more wear on it, but a rebuilt one will be no different.

[jgrote]

Yeah, I already planned on using the multiplier for the tach, but if I use the SVX ECU and TCU, I won't need to "modify" the signal from the ECU to the TCU, right? Just to the tach. Would it be wiser to use a phase one TCU from something else rather than using the SVX one? Then I would need to run the RPM wire through the multiplier, but may solve some of other shifting issues. I still want to program out some of the more unwanted stuff in the TCU. I've read about a planned "slip" to make shifts smoother, and of course, the full throttle shift point.

 

Good luck on your rally. Thank you for all the info guys!:):)

[idosubaru]

an automatic EJ trans has been swapped into an EA vehicle before without TCU mods so the EA trans and early EJ trans are extremely similar mechanically. wouldn't an early SVX TCU be plug and play and gen1 stuff?

 

subaru started OBDII stuff in the midst of the SVX production years, so what is the SVX - OBDI, II, or both?

[jgrote]

an automatic EJ trans has been swapped into an EA vehicle before without TCU mods so the EA trans and early EJ trans are extremely similar mechanically. wouldn't an early SVX TCU be plug and play and gen1 stuff?

 

subaru started OBDII stuff in the midst of the SVX production years, so what is the SVX - OBDI, II, or both?

 

Both. SVX's were ODB1 until 95. They went to ODB2 for 96-98. I am wanting to keep my trans from my 99 forester and mate it to a 92 SVX. My trans is a phase2, and the SVX uses a phase1. This conversation is to try to figure out how to make a phase2 trans happy by either fooling the TCU into being happy, or using a phase1 TCU with a phase2 trans.

Edited August 22, 2010 by jgrote