Head Gasket On EJ25 Phase 2

[bondguy399]

Hey guys, so i've been searching my rump roast off trying to figure out what all parts are completely necessary for the job. I'm a pretty experienced weekend mechanic. I just bought a 1999 Legacy Outback two weeks ago, knowing it needed the timing belt done (120k and it wasn't done). So last weekend I tackled that. Purchased the kit, a water pump, and new thermostat; Completed it with no snags and actually really enjoyed the design of the car compared to past car's i've had to do work on.

 

Unfortunately this weekend I was going climbing in the mountains, and after about 40mi of constant grade i noticed my temp gauge nearing the top and pulled over immediately. After much research I've found i have all the usual symptoms so here i am...joining the club i suppose . Also unfortunate, upon doing my research i found the info on the sludge in the coolant reservoir, when i did the timing belt i noticed this in there but thought perhaps it was just stop leak added incorrectly. So i'm thinking i bought it with a blown HG.

 

Anyway, A few questions. The cosworth head gasket, Is it worth the cost? I'm looking for reliability, not really performance(though i wont complain if some is to be had), so will that HG vs the OEM 610 give me MORE longevity or is the OEM doing really well? And Does the 1.1mm work/have advantages/disadvantages vs the 1.5mm?

 

Also I'm having trouble locating the Part #'s for some parts on most of the sites i've found. I can find the parts just fine, but i would like the assurance of Cross Referencing with the OEM part#'s i've found some of on here and other forums before i spend the money. I would love to compile a complete list with all the parts to make it easier for everyone and make a writeup on how the job goes.

 

I have also seen it seems to be a good time to do the valve clearance, as the heads will be totally broken down anyway. My question is i've read that it can be done in the car without the $275 tool AND that it cant. So does anyone have experience with doing it? This will pretty much decide whether or not I'm pulling the motor.

 

Thanks in advance guy's. I know this topic is beaten to the ground, but its almost as if there is sooo much information it makes it more confusing to find the necessary parts.

 

-Bennett

[davebugs]

Simplify your life.

 

OEM head gaskets.

 

Basically same price as aftermarkets and NO issues.

 

Welcome aboard to the USMB.

 

Search around here a bit.

 

Basically folks recommend OEM HG's and aftermarket idler sets. OEM plug wires, NGK plugs, OEM thermostat's.

[bondguy399]

Simplify your life.

OEM head gaskets.

Basically same price as aftermarkets and NO issues.

Welcome aboard to the USMB.

Search around here a bit.

Basically folks recommend OEM HG's and aftermarket idler sets. OEM plug wires, NGK plugs, OEM thermostat's.

 

Thanks a bunch for the reply, i was curious on plugs and wires too! And I won't make the mistake again with the thermostat. And that makes the HG decision easier for sure. I just hadn't read much on the Cosworth HG results.

 

Anyone with experience on whether or not the valves can be clearanced with the engine in the car still?

 

I'll be posting a complete gasket/parts guide for everything in the end. It feels incomplete for sure at the moment. Help would be much appreciated.

 

Part #................Description.........................................QTY...Price(8/'10)

11044AA610....Head Gasket 1.5mm 4 layer, newest gasket...2.....$30.92

11051AA070....Plug Cylinder Head (Half Moon Gaskets)........4.....$4.51

13270AA062....Rocker Cover Gasket (Valve Cover) Left........1.....$10.76

13272AA063....Rocker Cover Gasket (Valve Cover) Right......1.....$10.76

14035AA281....Intake Manifold Gasket...............................2.....$3.56

13293AA051....Spark Plug Well Gasket..............................4......$7.16

13271AA051....Washers and gaskets for valve cover bolts...12.....$2.52

44011AC030....Exhaust Gasket.........................................2.....$5.51

10991AA000....Oil Pump O-Ring........................................1.....$1.45

21114AA051....Water Pump Gasket...................................1.....$2.86

806733030......Front Main Oil Seal....................................1.....$6.17

 

I'm still looking for Anerobic Sealant and the part #'s for the Oil Filler Neck O-Ring and Camshaft Oil Seals. And any other parts you can think of i can add to this list before i get started so i can make minimal dealership trips would be so helpful.

Thanks guys!

-Bennett

[idosubaru]

definitely OEM, no reason to stray from that.

 

there's a recent thread - like yesterday or today that has all the part numbers in it, maybe that's where you got those from. Skip has a detailed list too - you can type in "skip Ej25 headgasket" or something like that in google and it'll come up.

 

yes the valves "can" be clearanced in the car. you can search for info on that too, it's not fun.

[GeneralDisorder]

Valve clearance is very easy to do with the engine out - all you need is a 10mm wrench and a feeler gauge - and I am of the school that replacing head gaskets should ALWAYS be done with the engine out of the car. It makes everything go easier and smoother. Engine removal/installation is only a couple hours and is worth every minute of it. Borrow or rent a cherry picker and buy an engine stand for $40 (engine needs to be on a stand or in an old tire/rim to break the head bolts loose).

 

I've done EJ head gaskets with the engine in place and it's no fun in comparison to pulling it. Pulling the engine and putting it on a stand is far and away a much more pleasant experience. It gives access to everything to do a proper reseal (rear main, etc) and makes cleaning of things like the oil pan and engine block so much simpler. I usually steam clean the engine bay while the engine is out and do things like axle boots and transmission mounts, etc.

 

GD

[bstone]

Simplify your life.

 

OEM head gaskets.

 

Basically same price as aftermarkets and NO issues.

 

Welcome aboard to the USMB.

 

Search around here a bit.

 

Basically folks recommend OEM HG's and aftermarket idler sets. OEM plug wires, NGK plugs, OEM thermostat's.

 

HGs

Thermostats

 

No apostrophe to make plural.

[davebugs]

If you're the grammar police - you'll be busy around here...

 

Enjoy yourself.

 

Some of us like to add value and help folks. Other like to nit pick. (hey - I probably mis-spelled knit pick!!)

 

Which am I?

 

Which are you?

 

Glad I'm me.

[Mugs]

I have used this exact same kit in several cars now, and have had no issues at all. The only thing I recommend is using the oem metal h2o pump gasket and ditching the pan gasket and use ultra grey slicone sealer like it had from the factory. Use ultra grey on the oil pump, and seperator plate, and also on the cam craddle as well.

 

I use there t-belt kit as well..but you have allready done that so no worries.

 

When I do the head gaskets I pull the engine and tear everything down to the short black and them come back out with re-sealing everything and I do mean everything. I also have my heads machined as well.

 

Hope it all goes well for ya.

[GeneralDisorder]

HGs

Thermostats

 

No apostrophe to make plural.

 

I said nothing the first time you did this - but this time - NO ONE CARES. Rudimentary spelling and puctuation are acceptable around here as long as we can read it and understand it.

 

You are adding no value to the conversion. If you have nothing useful to say - just don't reply. Got it?

 

GD

[rxleone]

HGs

Thermostats

 

No apostrophe to make plural.

 

I'm a bit of a grammar nazi myself, but seriously?

 

I said nothing the first time you did this - but this time - NO ONE CARES. Rudimentary spelling and puctuation are acceptable around here as long as we can read it and understand it.

 

You are adding no value to the conversion. If you have nothing useful to say - just don't reply. Got it?

 

GD

 

Well said.

 

As for the car - I don't think you can really go wrong with OEM anything - if you have the money, that is. Some incidental things don't really matter, but if it's what Subaru puts on new cars, then it must have some kind of standard of quality. I'd roll with that.

[davebugs]

I second the OEM Metal WP gasket and only ultra-grey for oil pan, baffle plate, oil pump. I also ALWAYS do oil pump O-ring, crank and cam seals - again all OEM. If you're working on an engine and the seals are black always replace them. If they are brown it's a tougher decision - that means they are OEM. IIR they each are around 8 bucks and are accessable when doing hte job you're doing so why not do them? Again while I'm in that deep I always replace all crank/cam seals. I use PVC pipe to set them.

 

A note on the the oil pan and oil pump. If you go to a parts store they sell Fel-Pro or similar from a GASKET company. From the factory these things don't take gaskets just ultra-grey or anerobic(sp?). But if you ask for a gasket at a place that sells gaskets you'll come home with a gasket. I think Ultra Grey does better. You'll need Ultra Grey for the front cam caps in the corners anyways if you tear down the heads to have them checked.

 

I always get the radiator flushed and pressure checked because by the time I get the car lots of "miracle cures" have already been tried.

 

 

For VC gaskets I usually use Fel-Pro. Exhaust is a todd up but OEM seem thicker and are the same price as Fel-Pro but often you can re-use the old ones. Intake gaskets don't matter to me.

[The Dude]

Unless the engine has been replaced on your 1999 Legacy, it is a PHASE I DOHC. You might start from there.

[Mugs]

I second the OEM Metal WP gasket and only ultra-grey for oil pan, baffle plate, oil pump. I also ALWAYS do oil pump O-ring, crank and cam seals - again all OEM.

 

Right I was meaning/inlcuding that in the above mention of what I do

 

If you're working on an engine and the seals are black always replace them. If they are brown it's a tougher decision - that means they are OEM. IIR they each are around 8 bucks and are accessable when doing hte job you're doing so why not do them? Again while I'm in that deep I always replace all crank/cam seals. I use PVC pipe to set them.

 

the ones that come in the kit are oem brown...the whole kit has the usaual nsk, ntn, gmb, japanese named gasgets in them. Heck even the exhaust gaskets are metel oem style. Not all of it is "OEM" but it sure fits and functions like it. I am not trying to plug the kit, but for the money vs what OEM stuff cost you can't beat it.

 

 

I always get the radiator flushed and pressure checked because by the time I get the car lots of "miracle cures" have already been tried.

Also be sure to use the suby additive and coolant as well. YES THERE IS HUGE DIFFERENCE

[subaru360]

I said nothing the first time you did this - but this time - NO ONE CARES. Rudimentary spelling and puctuation are acceptable around here as long as we can read it and understand it.

 

You are adding no value to the conversion. If you have nothing useful to say - just don't reply. Got it?

 

GD

 

Yeah really, save that stuff for nasioc, they like to be stuck up over there. If I can read it, I don't care.

 

OP, nobody has mentioned it, but 99 Outback is a Phase 1 engine.

[daredevil1166]

I did the HG's on my 99 a few months ago.

 

It could be that I just haven't heard, but I don't know of any HG job that has been done right with OEM gaskets going bad again.

 

I used all OEM parts from subarugenuineparts.com. I just gave them my VIN and noted to please check that all parts match the VIN.

 

They've been great about it and have caught a couple wrong parts for me.

 

Oh, wait, I used aftermarket valve cover gaskets. Fel-Pro. It was easier because they come in a kit with the grommets and spark plug hole gaskets.

 

Yes, the valves are easy to adjust when the engine is out. The idea is to measure the valve clearance before disassembling the engine. Order the correct shims right away. Then, by the time you have the heads back from the machine shop your shims should be in. I'd just get the shims from your local dealer. They're relatively cheap. Most dealers have a local suppier that can get them in a day or so, but I'd check with yours. Just be sure to mark and organize all of the shims and buckets as you're taking them out.

 

Then make sure you re-measure after you put the new shims in.

 

The best advice I can give you is to take it slow and read the factory service manual as many times as you can get yourself to.(there's a thread somewhere on where to download the FSM)

[bondguy399]

Hey guys, thanks for all the great info! Life got a bit nutty last few days, fortunately I have a second commuter.

 

Sounds like I'll be picking up an engine stand and doin this out of the vehicle. I'll take plenty of pictures and hopefully have a good clear write up.

 

My bad on the phase of the engine...can i change that? Or perhaps have a mod correct it. I just got them mixed up. Its def the DOHC motor with the internal HG problem. Thanks for clarifying.

 

I'm really glad to hear that the OEM HG is holding up well. Saves me MOOLAH! I still haven't been able to locate the Part #'s for the Camshaft Oil Seals. If anyone has them that would be quite helpful. Also the Part # number for the Rear Main Seal. I would also be quite excited on being pointed to an efficient means of looking up the #'s. The other forum posts i've found all seem to have partial lists with the part#'s and then people recommend what to add, but the list doesn't get updated.

 

The idea is to measure the valve clearance before disassembling the engine. Order the correct shims right away. Then, by the time you have the heads back from the machine shop your shims should be in. -daredevil1166

 

THANK YOU! This is a great pointer. I probably would have overlooked this. I've pulled apart heads before but they had hydraulic lifters. So this will be my first time with solid lifters and that whole process. Lots of organization and pictures will be taken. And lots of labeling. Any other pointers are appreciated.

 

Standard Motor oil is appropriate for assembly of the heads correct?

 

-Davebugs- Check on the Ultra Grey. I've got a leak down there anyhow at the moment. As for the radiator flush, do the "at home" kits work or should i just have it done at a local shop?

 

I have a much better view of how this will be going now, Thanks guys. So much!

 

-Bennett

 

@Bstone - I do not envy the task you've chosen for yourself as grammar police. This is the internet, and people don't care. So you've definitely got your work cut out for ya. Good luck.

[davebugs]

Do a little searching on the rear main seal around here.

 

Most folks, including myself recommend NOT replacing it.

 

Lets put it this way. I've probably done close to 100 reseal jobs on 2.2 and 2.5's. The only 2 that I had to replace the rear main is because someone had replaced them before. Typically a tranny shop. The baffle plate is what leaks and folks think it's the rear main. Yea - I know the rear main may require pulling the engine (or tranny) again but it's one of those rare instances where it's usually better left alone.

 

The "I'll do it while I'm in there" can often bite you with this one.

 

That said the 2 I did have to install I used PVC to set and didn't leak.

 

But seriousely do some searching around here and develop your own opinion on the rear main.

 

Good luck. Search for "skipnospam" has one of my favorite writeups.

 

Get a 14mm Swivel socket for especially the drivers lower nut.

 

And IIR a 12mm swivel socket or offset box for the flex plate bolts.

 

Other than that read up on making sure the torque converter is seated properly before re-installing the engine.

 

On the rad flush. I prefer to support the local tradesman (who are a vanishing breed). He charges me 20 bucks for a flush and pressure check. And he's on my way to the shop that does my heads. I'd guess he does a better job that I could. Then again if you'd do a flush with the rad in the car it might catch some crap in the heater core as well.

 

Also read up on "burping" the 2.5. Can be a bit moody and there are a few tricks.

 

Have fun. Not really a difficult job.

 

Oh yea - read up on making SURE you get the harmonic balancer/crank pulley TIGHT.

[1-3-2-4]

About this rear main seal.. what makes it more prone to leak then the front main seal? I replaced my front seal some 9 or 13K miles ago and no leaks.. now I know the rear baffle plate is leaking which I do have the part in my closet right now but I also picked up a new rear main seal.

 

is most of the leaks because people fail to drive it in the right way?

[logic23]

I've seen several 2.5 DOHC HG replacements fail (40-60K miles). 3 of them were dealer jobs. Don't mean to be a downer but the 2.5 DOHC engine has a lot of variables that can make it fail: headgaskets, plastic cams, idler pulleys and thousands of posts concerning head gaskets. Since no one has been able to explain the reason why this engine fails and then how to fix it I put this engine in the unreliable catagory.

[GeneralDisorder]

About this rear main seal.. what makes it more prone to leak then the front main seal? I replaced my front seal some 9 or 13K miles ago and no leaks.. now I know the rear baffle plate is leaking which I do have the part in my closet right now but I also picked up a new rear main seal.

 

is most of the leaks because people fail to drive it in the right way?

 

 

Couple reasons - first and foremost the seal is VERY large - 50mm in diameter. Most people don't have experience with seals of this size.

 

Second, people use non-OEM seals. The Subaru seals come pre-lubed for installation. Lubrication of the seal is neccesary as they don't get a good supply of oil up there right away when started.

 

Third - people just don't know how to properly set seals and insure they are even all the way around. On a seal of this diameter it is CRITICAL that it be set perfectly straight. The edge of the seal needs to be within just a fraction of a milimeter of the same depth around the entire edge. Most failures are due to being too deep, uneven, or due to burrs on the crank from removal of the old seal that were not addressed prior to driving in the new one.

 

Basically it's a lack of attention to detail and some of that is because people just don't understand how critical the details are with these.

 

I've set a number of EA and EJ rear mains and I have yet to have one leak. It can be done - it just takes some patience and willingness to learn the correct procedure.

 

GD

[GeneralDisorder]

I've seen several 2.5 DOHC HG replacements fail (40-60K miles).

 

Have those been failures of the latest revision HG's - the MLS 4 layer one's?

 

I would probably question the prep work of the block and heads and if the heads were resurfaced, etc. Any head gasket job can fail if it's done wrong and there's always a higher percentage of failures on replacement gaskets vs. factory installed units (that aren't of a defective design) due to the natural variability of the work being performed and of the mechanic that's performing the work. At the factory they can take a lot of that variability out with robots and meticulous training and QC. At the point where you have a monkey with a wrench dinking around under the hood - it's up to him and him alone to do the job right.

 

GD

[idosubaru]

you've probably already seen one, but like GD said the rear mains are huge seals compared to the others.

 

as to head gasket failures, the dealers i've talked to don't even mill the heads. like GD said it's not an easy job and lots of folks are getting the gaskets/blocks dirty or contaminated with oil/coolant and then the torque sequence. there's a lot of things to go wrong on a such a precise job.

 

i would suspect most failures are a glitch in the process. haven't seen many repeat failures in other soobs - but they don't have near the volume of headgasket jobs.

[1-3-2-4]

Couple reasons - first and foremost the seal is VERY large - 50mm in diameter. Most people don't have experience with seals of this size.

 

Second, people use non-OEM seals. The Subaru seals come pre-lubed for installation. Lubrication of the seal is neccesary as they don't get a good supply of oil up there right away when started.

 

Third - people just don't know how to properly set seals and insure they are even all the way around. On a seal of this diameter it is CRITICAL that it be set perfectly straight. The edge of the seal needs to be within just a fraction of a milimeter of the same depth around the entire edge. Most failures are due to being too deep, uneven, or due to burrs on the crank from removal of the old seal that were not addressed prior to driving in the new one.

 

Basically it's a lack of attention to detail and some of that is because people just don't understand how critical the details are with these.

 

I've set a number of EA and EJ rear mains and I have yet to have one leak. It can be done - it just takes some patience and willingness to learn the correct procedure.

 

GD

 

I did everything 100% what my FSM said.. for the front seal oiled the ring with fresh oil and I drove it in straight with a very large axle socket. Then again I was not in a rush when I did it..

[1-3-2-4]

rear main seal if no one never seen it.

 

[Gloyale]

Spend a buck and get O-rings for the coolant crossover pipe.

 

1- 9/16" x 1/8" Orings from any auto parts store will work.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Gloyale