greenieman7 Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 I am sure this has been covered before in a prior thread, but I cant find it. This 1993 Legacy Wagon AWD has 215K~miles. The auto tranny works great in all aspects except, it does not shift smoothly from 2nd to 3rd under all conditions. If I idle along, it shifts fine. If I get on it hard, it shifts fine. If I accelerate at an "average rate," there is a delay during which the engine revs up because the tranny has not gone into gear; the delay is about a second in duration. I can lessen this amount of time by backing off on the accelerator. I am suspicious of a sticky valve in the valve body (possible dirt accumulations in the valve body). It would seem if the bands or clutches were wearing out, I would have trouble under a broader range of circumstances. On the other hand, it does have 215K~ miles. Anyway, I'm looking for experience. If my description of the symptom is not clear enough, I will gladly try again. The fluid is new and clean. Perhaps a synthetic fluid would be better, yet it seems it should work with regular clean fluid. Has anyone had trouble with a sticky valve causing a problem similar to above? Has anyone had a problem similar to above that did not result in rebuilding or replacing the tranny yet was solved? Thanks to all of you for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 My guess is that with 215K miles, your trany is getting old and tired. You might try adding a bottle of Lucas auto trany additive to see if that helps. Product available at most auto parts stores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy777 Posted August 25, 2010 Share Posted August 25, 2010 It's likely a solenoid valve. The brake band handles the 1-2 & 3-4 upshift. You may be able to have the valve body worked on and that may improve things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenieman7 Posted August 25, 2010 Author Share Posted August 25, 2010 Thank you; is the solenoid valve one of the valves in the valve body? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 disconnect your shift resistor and see what happens. i've disconnected those before, firms up the shifts, and then just leave it like that. i like firmer shifts anyway. doesn't seem like worth opening things up for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy777 Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 Yes the shift solenoid is on the valve body. There are some solenoids on the bottom of the valve body that you can get to by just removing the pan. There's others on top, which require dropping the valve body. The issue may be with one of the solenoids or possibly one of the passageways in the circuit for that solenoid. I would NOT recommend disconnecting the dropping resistor Gary talks about. I speak from experience. It can firm up shifts, but the transmission is not designed to take full line pressure all the time. After some extended use, especially with a marginal transmission, it can cause further shift delays and other issues. I had mine disconnected for a couple days, and when I plugged it back in, the transmission acted differently, and was never the same. That was on a 90 Legacy. Some of the newer transmissions may accept this mod better, but I wouldn't recommend it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenieman7 Posted August 26, 2010 Author Share Posted August 26, 2010 Thank you. Just out of curiosity, are these solenoids true electrically powered solenoids? Can they be checked electrically by measuring resistance? Anyway,, thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 They are electrically operated solenoids, but they are never fully on nor fully off during operation. The TCU drives them 5% to 95% duty cycle with a square wave around 50Hz. How about a band adjustment? I think the procedure describes something about the 2-3 shifts and which way to adjust it in this case. The adjustment is a slight pita though iirc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manarius Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 Yes the shift solenoid is on the valve body. There are some solenoids on the bottom of the valve body that you can get to by just removing the pan. There's others on top, which require dropping the valve body. The issue may be with one of the solenoids or possibly one of the passageways in the circuit for that solenoid. I would NOT recommend disconnecting the dropping resistor Gary talks about. I speak from experience. It can firm up shifts, but the transmission is not designed to take full line pressure all the time. After some extended use, especially with a marginal transmission, it can cause further shift delays and other issues. I had mine disconnected for a couple days, and when I plugged it back in, the transmission acted differently, and was never the same. That was on a 90 Legacy. Some of the newer transmissions may accept this mod better, but I wouldn't recommend it. I can confirm that unplugging the resistor is probably not a good idea on a marginal transmission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenieman7 Posted August 26, 2010 Author Share Posted August 26, 2010 Are there any existing threads or links to an explanation the band adjustment procedure? I did find a good description of the 4EAT trans and have a slightly better understanding, at least better overview of how it works.Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manarius Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 (edited) Are there any existing threads or links to an explanation the band adjustment procedure? I did find a good description of the 4EAT trans and have a slightly better understanding, at least better overview of how it works.Thank youHere's the one from the SVX website. It should be similar to the Legacy one. http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54335 Edited August 26, 2010 by Manarius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenieman7 Posted August 26, 2010 Author Share Posted August 26, 2010 Reading the last page of that attachment where it describes the clearances, it describes precisely the symptoms my 4eat is having. Ill try it. thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manarius Posted August 26, 2010 Share Posted August 26, 2010 Reading the last page of that attachment where it describes the clearances, it describes precisely the symptoms my 4eat is having. Ill try it. thank youThat last page is straight out of the Factory Service Manual for the SVX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenieman7 Posted August 26, 2010 Author Share Posted August 26, 2010 Well it turns out that the lock nut was loose; I am not sure how loose as I put a wrench on it, turned it, felt no resistance, then tried with my fingers and it was loose. It may have had a slight bit of resistance that was easily overcome by the wrench or it may have been finger loose to begin with. It had not backed off far as it did not take many partial turns to seat. Question is, have I lost my base setting? I tightened the 8mm head, but didn't want to exceed the 3/4 turn parameter. I am wondering if there is some base setting? Would it make sense to use the directions for 1&4, tighten to 8 ft pounds (Ill recheck the spec first), then back off 3 turns?Is that back off 3 full revolutions? BTW, it seems comparatively easy to get to on a 93 Legacy. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenieman7 Posted August 26, 2010 Author Share Posted August 26, 2010 Spec is hard to read in that link; I believe it is 6.5ft lbs, not 8 lbs, but still wondering if this approach is a good one (please see previous post)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 There is a a good article explaining it on endwrench.com as well but you'd have to search the archives for it (provided they haven't taken it down yet). It said to adjust the bands slowly, not too much at once. And it had a special tool you can make out of a piece of 2x3 to help with the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenieman7 Posted August 27, 2010 Author Share Posted August 27, 2010 At this point, I don't think it is band adjustment. Slight adjustments made no difference so I went through the process of adjusting it to 6.5 ft lbs and backing off 3 turns. I had to improvise a bit as I could not fit a torque wrench with socket on to the 8 mm square post (too close to firewall). Nothing I did stopped the problem. So I am back to thinking it is either a valve sticking, a solenoid not functioning correctly, or something related. The other variable I forgot to mention (but will mention now) is that on the highway, going up hill, it does not want to automatically downshift. I had/have to manually downshift or it stays in 4th. I don't care about this, but it may be a clue. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manarius Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 At this point, I don't think it is band adjustment. Slight adjustments made no difference so I went through the process of adjusting it to 6.5 ft lbs and backing off 3 turns. I had to improvise a bit as I could not fit a torque wrench with socket on to the 8 mm square post (too close to firewall). Nothing I did stopped the problem. So I am back to thinking it is either a valve sticking, a solenoid not functioning correctly, or something related. The other variable I forgot to mention (but will mention now) is that on the highway, going up hill, it does not want to automatically downshift. I had/have to manually downshift or it stays in 4th. I don't care about this, but it may be a clue. Thank you It would probably just be easier to swap in a lower mileage transmission than to try to take apart a 215k auto in order to replace the valve body. Perfect time to do a 5sp swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenieman7 Posted August 27, 2010 Author Share Posted August 27, 2010 Thank you, but I need to keep this thread on target or drop it. This is a $700 car that I bought in an emergency to get my dog home and now need to resell, but want to insure is in decent shape (if possible). I believe the problem stands a chance of having a simple fix. With this in mind I am looking for experience. The band adjustment was a good idea, but did not do it. I would guess that dropping the valve body and cleaning and inspecting it, looking for a sticky valve or equal might not be a big deal, but I could be wrong. If anyone has any experience with this, I'd love to hear back. Or suggestions of other places to look. Thank you all for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 Maybe a dumb question, but how's the condition of your ATF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 (edited) is it that bad that you can't just sell it as is? on a car this old i'd just sell it with known issues 'as-is'. usually not hard to sell something for $700 that gets from a to b even if it has issues. but maybe it's really bad? have you drained the fluid to see if it's clean or lots of build up on the drain plug? if that was bad then i wouldn't sell it or i'd be up front about that. if the fluid is clean then there's a good chance it might not get worse. I would guess that dropping the valve body and cleaning and inspecting it, looking for a sticky valve or equal might not be a big deal, but I could be wrong. If anyone has any experience with this, I'd love to hear back. .everyone is different, so depends on you. i've disassembled one before for kicks and it would be a waste of time for me. it's a huge job. i could flip a car in a day and make $2,000 rather than spend all day (or two) dropping a valve body on a car that's not worth much when i can buy a transmission for $150 and fix it. maybe you could review an FSM detailing auto trans disassembly. putting them back together would be really awesome. but if someone has time to burn then maybe it's a good fit. someone on here has a detailed thread of rebuilding an auto trans in a 1993 they just did last year or so. a very early EJ so it would be identical to yours. i believe it was an impreza, but same exact transmission. might want to find that thread if you're still interested. it ended up having issues when he was done. Edited August 27, 2010 by grossgary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legacy777 Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 Just an FYI, the brake band handles primarily the 1-2 & 3-4 shift. Here's a scan on it's adjustability. http://main.experiencetherave.com/subaru_manual_scans/FSM_Scans/transbrakebandadj.jpg The easiest way to adjust it is to tighten it all the way and then back it off slightly. If you get a jerky shift, back it off a little more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manarius Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 Just an FYI, the brake band handles primarily the 1-2 & 3-4 shift. Here's a scan on it's adjustability. http://main.experiencetherave.com/subaru_manual_scans/FSM_Scans/transbrakebandadj.jpg The easiest way to adjust it is to tighten it all the way and then back it off slightly. If you get a jerky shift, back it off a little more. Josh, that page looks exactly the same as the page in the FSM for the SVX. I think that's pretty cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greenieman7 Posted August 27, 2010 Author Share Posted August 27, 2010 The easiest way to adjust it is to tighten it all the way and then back it off slightly. If you get a jerky shift, back it off a little more. The above is quite different than the process described before; I'd like to try it, but want to be sure it wont hurt anything; is it safe? Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted August 27, 2010 Share Posted August 27, 2010 Just an FYI, the brake band handles primarily the 1-2 & 3-4 shift. The easiest way to adjust it is to tighten it all the way and then back it off slightly. If you get a jerky shift, back it off a little more. is there any chance this would cause a "hard" 1-2 shift and no other symptoms?? having read the fsm pages attached, i've already planned to double check and make sure that my wife's 97 GT 2.2L auto does not make a 1-3 shift. i don't think it does, but i still want to check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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