96 Outback Legacy

[Nolapete]

My gf's 96 Outback Legacy has a couple issues she's tried to have fixed to no avail.

 

The primary issue currently is that it will randomly not start until you tap on the starter and have someone else turn the ignition. Of course, she was told it was the starter and had it replaced FOUR different times. That, of course, didn't resolve the problem.

 

This was before I was in the picture, so now I am investigating into some type of electrical problem; ignition-starter switch maybe?

 

My mechanic looked at it today and told me that it is getting the correct voltage to the starter and that he could replace the starter. He referred me to an automotive electrician he uses for a second opinion. I'm bringing it over there Monday to have the electrician take a look at it before we replace the starter again.

 

Any ideas?

 

The other issue is that the prior owner lived up north somewhere (New York I think) and the car has some fairly serious rust underneath. The passenger side rear brake line failed a couple months ago and her brother repaired it by rerouting the brake line with a new line. Not the best fix, but without knowing what he had to take apart to get at the old line to remove it he did what he could do. We're concerned about the other brake lines, particularly the driver's side rear.

 

What exactly needs to be removed to get at the brake lines in the rear? Fuel tank?

 

Would it be better to reroute the driver's side with a new line rather than risk unknown problems taking things apart to get at it properly with all the rust?

 

Thanks,

 

Pete

[porcupine73]

Hello Pete and welcome. There was just a recent thread about such starter issues. A knowledgeable member mentioned he has installed an interposing relay in the circuit feeding the starter solenoid to fix this type of issue in the past. If it's an auto trans sometimes if the switch letting it start in park and neutral is off a little bit that can cause problems too.

 

The rusty brake lines seem to be popping up more and more on that year Legacy and Outback. But of course being they're 15 years old now it's not too surprising I guess. I fixed mine by replacing the entire section of line from under the rear seat where it penetrates the floor (right/passenger side) and routing the lines where convenient back to the calipers/wheel cylinders. I could see the lines were in poor condition so I wasn't going to try just replacing one section; I just replaced the entire sections. I removed nothing from the car to do this job except the rear wheels. I have some pics somewhere.

[rainman19154]

I be interested in seeing those pics. My 95 is probably a candidate for that repair.

[GeneralDisorder]

My mechanic looked at it today and told me that it is getting the correct voltage to the starter and that he could replace the starter. He referred me to an automotive electrician he uses for a second opinion. I'm bringing it over there Monday to have the electrician take a look at it before we replace the starter again.

 

Any ideas?

 

Voltage is only half the equation. You need amps too. Somewhere, something isn't happy about giving you enough amps to close the solenoid.

 

Since it's been checked over by a lot of mechanics - I would check the inhibitor switches (clutch pedal on a manual, or the park/neutral switch on an automatic) just to be sure that's not the issue. And if not, install a relay run by the old solenoid wire that gives the solenoid full battery voltage. Here's a recent thread with the same issue on a '95:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=115119

 

GD

[porcupine73]

Here are some of my brake line replacement pics on '96 Legacy: http://www.porcupine73.com/pics/brakes/leak96/

[rainman19154]

Those are some good shots. It's obvious how tough it is to get a camera under there where the lines route to- I appreciate the effort.

 

Have you had to replace any fuel lines?

Was that leak on your gas tank in the last shots? What did you do with that?

[porcupine73]

I have not yet had to replace any fuel lines. That spot on the fuel tank was the brake line leak somewhere above the tank.

[Nolapete]

Thanks for the replies and information. Good to know that the brake lines can be accessed below the floor. Do you have to remove anything but the rear seat to get to them?

 

I'm taking it over to an auto electrician that my mechanic recommended on Monday. I'll mention to him about the inhibitors and relay.

 

She usually leaves her lights on in the auto turn off, so I told her we should turn off the lights, ac, and radio before turning off the car. It seems as though if anything electrical like that is left on the car won't start the next time without tapping the starter.

 

My mechanic mentioned something about the brushes inside the starter stopping at the wrong position; thus the tapping frees them up to move. I wonder if the lights/ac/radio on has something to do with it not landing in the correct position.

[Olnick]

If the problem persists through 4 different starters, then it's NOT a starter problem!

 

Have your battery tested and check the output of the alternator. Clean and tighten the battery cable connectors. Check the cables/lines to the starter.

 

And, yes, shut off lights, radio, a/c, etc. every time!

[johnceggleston]

you need a relay fix. they are simple and cost very little. i used directions and a drawing from this site but i do not remember what search "terms" i used to find it.

 

i would suggest 'starter relay' and see what you get.

 

i just read this week a post about how adding a relay corrected every starter problem ever. of course this is an exaggeration but you get the idea. especially if you have tried several starters.

 

basically you use the existing ''little" wire on the starter , from the ignition switch, to energize a relay which then feeds power from the battery to the starter solenoid, the little wire on the starter. it works great, i put one in several years ago and have not had any starting issues since. i did not clean or replace the contacts in the starter. works great.

 

the relays are generic and cheap at any parts store, you need some wire and connectors and a "fused feed wire" from the battery. this too is not expensive.

[GeneralDisorder]

She usually leaves her lights on in the auto turn off, so I told her we should turn off the lights, ac, and radio before turning off the car. It seems as though if anything electrical like that is left on the car won't start the next time without tapping the starter.

 

This is known as "voodoo mechanicing" - basically you are hoping to have more amps availible for the damaged circuit. That is a good clue that it's amps and not voltage that's your problem.

 

My mechanic mentioned something about the brushes inside the starter stopping at the wrong position; thus the tapping frees them up to move. I wonder if the lights/ac/radio on has something to do with it not landing in the correct position.

 

Your mechanic is guesing. Here on this board we have LOTS of experience with this problem. Find a mechanic (or do it yourself - it's really simple) to install a relay for the crank cicruit. This WILL fix your problem and it will be the last time/money you spend on this mess.

 

I'm handing you the answer - serving it on the finest silver even - just do what we say and live happily ever after.

 

GD

[Gloyale]

Yeah, it used to be I on;y had to add the relay and/or pushbutton start to early EA series subarus.

 

But recently, as time has gone by and the first EJ cars are 20 years old now, I've had to install relays on a few.

 

The my theory at this point is the wiring is degrading and has reduced amprage capacity. I used to think it was ignition switches, but I've replaced a few with no change. Same with connectors and terminals. Seems the on;y thing left is the OE wiring getting old.

 

Anyhow....yeah.....add a relay......triggered by a pushbutton if you like.......but either way will solve the problem.

[GeneralDisorder]

The my theory at this point is the wiring is degrading and has reduced amprage capacity. I used to think it was ignition switches, but I've replaced a few with no change. Same with connectors and terminals. Seems the on;y thing left is the OE wiring getting old.

 

+1. I had a very nice '91 Legacy a few months back - always dealer maintained with lots of documentation. They replaced the ignition switch and the starter shortly before I got it with dealer parts. It still would occasionally only give you the click. Even the dealer tech's haven't caught on apparently. Though I'm not sure if the relay install is an option for them..... maybe not.

 

The lady got rid of the car partially due to this issue that Subaru seemingly couldn't fix even after hundreds of $$ thrown at it. I got it $200.

 

I installed a relay and did a few other things - sold it for $1500 and it hasn't failed to start a single time since then. That was about 8 months ago.

 

GD

[Nolapete]

Update on the car.

 

Since we started turning off lights, radio, A/C before turning off the vehicle, it has only failed to start one time. I guess it got scared when I brought it to the auto electrician and threatened to install a relay.

 

My mechanic replaced the driver's side cv axle and put a new set of belts on (something I could have done myself, but in the current rusted state of the car I'm hesitant). He charged less than half of what my fiancee had paid to get the passenger's side cv axle replaced prior to meeting me. Really fair on pricing and cheap in comparison to others.

 

The brakes have been soft, so I had him check it out and he found that the master cylinder started leaking into the booster. He told me that the master cylinder and booster should both be replaced at the same time. He's hesitant to work on the car as well due to the rust and the parts cost through him was prohibitive ($400ish plus labor).

 

My fiancee's brother is mechanically inclined and has worked on her car before. We're considering having him replace the master cylinder only and not touching the booster.

 

What are the possible problems if the booster is not replaced at the same time as the master cylinder?

[GeneralDisorder]

The booster could fail eventually from the brake fluid eating the diaphram, etc. Replacing them as a set would be wise since the best opportunity to get bolts loose is going to be the one's inside the car that attach the booster to the firewall and pedal assembly - this avoids that half of the "rust" equation and then you just have to deal with the brake lines. If there is a lot of rust there then there might be some cutting/flaring of brake line to accomidate the new MC but not too bad.

 

The good news is that used boosters are a good option here since they almost never fail (extremely rare). If your specific case both the leakage into the booster and the rust on the MC bolts both are good reasons to replace it. Still - find a used one from a west coast car without the rust. Post in the wanted section or use www.car-part.com to get one from a yard without the rust.

 

The MC's are cheap - get one from www.rockauto.com

 

If her brother can do it - and I don't see why he shouldn't be able to - this should cost no more than $100 to $150 in parts if you buy a new MC and a used booster.

 

GD