Constant Engine Knock + Video 2000 Subaru 2.5RS

[NuclearBacon]

Check out my Post over at RS25.com.

 

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f190/t141851-constant-engine-knock-2000-2-5rs-video-am-i-fd.html

 

Long story short, and up to date, I have a consisitant knock. Everyone says that its a rodknock. I didnt think so, I took the head off and found this...

 

 

Insight??? Ideas??? Anything??

[Fairtax4me]

Well... Valve springs are supposed to be a certain height and tension under a certain amount of compression. I believe the FSM for your year would have the info you need to check them against. Might take the head to a machine shop and have them check the springs out.

 

As for that being the source of your noise. I really doubt it. I just don't see that little amount of play making that much racket.

Weak valve springs will cause valve "float" at higher RPMs.

A fun video about it.

 

As for you links in the RS25 thread. The other video was determined to be the belt tensioner.

 

Start pulling injector plugs to see if you get a change in noise with no combustion. You can pull plug wires if you want, but they bite pretty hard if you get too close.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Fairtax4me

[afterbang]

in your rs2.5 post you ask the question about if the knocking would only be present if you were to give it some gas. when my rod bearing went out on my dohc 2.5, the knocking was present even at idle and got louder and faster with higher rpms like you are experiencing in your first video. ive heard only my outback and a friends subaru have rod bearing failure and both sounded an awful lot like what i heard from your engine.

 

i am not an expert by any means but that is just my 2 cents concerning your issue. i wish you all the best and that is a total bummer if that is your situation as ive been there and know the feeling. if worse comes to worst, you can always find a donor block and get that car up and running again.

[Gloyale]

If that is your suspect, remove the cam case and measure the vavle free lengths.

 

I have to say though, I don't think that is vavle noise.

 

I'd say that falls into the "heavy clunking" diagnosis catagory which means rod bearings.

 

The oil may look fine, but that can be decieving. The hole the drain bolt goes through is actaully a short tube with threads welded into the pan. Problem is, you don't ever get the last half inch of oil out of the pan, and unless you have a magnetic plug, you won't find any shavings either.

 

Pull the oil pan and the baffle and you will be able to reach up into the engine and try to wiggle the rods on the crank. If they move, or if you find chunks in the pan, you will know what we mostly already do.

 

It can be fixed right now, before it ruins the crank or tosses a rod through the block.

[NuclearBacon]

Ok, the engine is out... I'll go pull the pan, and shake what i can shake....

 

-1 hour later-

 

Ok pan is off, baffle is off, can only get to two of the rods, try to move them, nothing that i can tell as of now. I only have the one head off, so i'm going to take the other head off, then i can rotate the engine and see if i can move anything.

 

Also absolutly no parts or pieces in the oil pan, baffle, or anywhere else. No Shinies anywhere...

 

And off comes the other head...

Edited August 31, 2010 by NuclearBacon

[nipper]

That yelling is very rude to say the least.

 

There may not be metal in the pan, as rod knock is not a broken part (yet), it is a worn connecting rod bearing. You may not be able to see it or feel it without using a gauge.

 

There were a few thing you could have done before pulling the engine. You could have listened with a stethascope (or the usual trick) to get a better idea of the source of the noise. YOu may be able to rock the engine with a breaker bar and feel for the knocking noise.

[NuclearBacon]

Great suggestions, I listened to the engine with my stethascope while it was running and i thought i heard a louder knocking sound coming out of the driver side rocker cover. It sounded as loud and had the same frequency as the knock heard with the naked ear... I did not hear the sound out of the passenger side.

 

I also (now that i have both heads off) rocked the crank back and forth and its just smooth and nice, without any feeling of a click.

 

I also didnt realize that was yelling. I wasnt, and apologuise. Font reduced.

Edited September 1, 2010 by NuclearBacon

[NuclearBacon]

Going to do Two things today...

 

1) Cut the oil Filter apart and sift through the paper inside

2) Take my head(s) down to a subaru machinist, and see if he can click my springs and tell me anything.

 

-30 minutes later-

Cut the filter apart... and there are the metal flakes... It looks like little chunks of metal (and i assume its not the debris from me actually cutting it with my hacksaw)

check it out...

 

So... I may finally have to give in. I havent made it over to the machine shop (its lunchtime) but i'll cart the heads over and have the guy look at them, and then just report back what he said. It'll be interesting to hear someone physically hold the head that rebuilds them and see if he goes "WOAH!"

 

I just want my WOAH. haha

Edited September 1, 2010 by NuclearBacon

[NuclearBacon]

Just got back from the Subaru machine shop

 

Guy looked at one of my heads (the driver side with the initial clicky spring) and he said he understood my concern about the sound being wierd, but at the same time, he said that the springs are under so little pressure that they could do that, because the car is overhead cam, so the spring pressure doesnt have to be as high, like in a Chevy V8. He then took my head into the back, compared it with another head he was redoing, then put my head on a spring load tester. Because my click was on the exhaust valve, and the head was not dismantled, he pushed down on the one exhaust rocker, got a reading about 97 lbs, then pushed on the other and got about 95 lbs. Looked up each spring value, and stock they're about 48lbs each. 48 + 48 basically equals 95-97 lbs.

 

The springs are ok.

 

When I asked about the cleaniness of my inner oil pan, he said that the bearings were made of a pretty hard aluminum and you wont get a lot of brabus (dang, what was the word he used) burber? or fine shavings or material common to most bearings in the bottom of the pan. The fact that cutting open the Oil Filter revieled metal evil, basically sealed the condition.

 

... I think I have to swallow the fact...

 

.............that I have a rod knock.

 

"^#&*!"

[NuclearBacon]

Just got off the phone with the machine shop... Terrels Cylinder Head

 

-$150 -Deck the block

-$30 - per rod (if we need one)

-$50 hone the cylinders

-$50 to clean

-$32.51 Rings

-$12.28 rod bearings

-$24.29 Main Bearings

-$274 - complete gasket set with all o-rings, washers, seals everything for a new engine

-$130 - crank work

 

= $604 approx, I dissassemble, I reassemble

[Fairtax4me]

I really doubt you need to do any serious work to the block. Take a close look at the cylinder walls for wear before you go dragging it down to the machine shop. I'd be willing to bet the original (factory) hone is still there and is showing little signs of wear.

Pop the rod ends off and remove the bearing assemblies yourself and figure out which one bit the dust, then inspect the crankshaft bearing surfaces for wear.

[NuclearBacon]

Interesting! I will!

 

I'll odviously be posting pics of the tear down, I just need a 14mm hex socket, something to pull the wrist pins (seen the ideas people have, very creative) and then I'm home free!

 

Clever wrist pin puller FTW?

[NuclearBacon]

Pics of progress

 

 

 

 

I new need to figure out a way to get the wrist pins out.. I decide to grovel at the subaru dealer, and it works! they let me take the wrist pin puller home over the labor day weekend..

 

More progress as the shop door closes...

 

 

 

 

 

This last one is a honda piston i had from my last little build i did. D17A2 1.7L honda POS. Pistons are a little smaller

[NuclearBacon]

The Block is SPLIT!

 

Heres a video of it happening!

 

 

Which cylinder was bad? how about which cylinder was the WORST??

 

Cyl 1

 

Cyl 2

 

Cyl 3

 

Cyl 4

 

 

All the goodies ready for the machine shop.

 

So as of now the engine sits at the machine shop in chico, getting all reworked.

 

Cant get enough and want to see ALL the pics???

 

http://s528.photobucket.com/albums/dd329/nuclearbacon2008/Subaru/2point5%20RS/

 

Keep posted for the reassembly coming soon!

[NuclearBacon]

Went down to the machine shop just now and he had some very interesting things to show me.

 

First he showed me 2 pistons. The first he showed me was a piston that was healthy, he moved the rings around the ringland like it was suppsed to. then he showed me piston #4. The rings WOULD NOT ROTATE around the piston. He then showed me the side that had made contact with whatever, and SMASHED the side of the piston down, sandwitching the ring in the ringland. The impact dent was about an inch long. He then showed me on the heads where the grounding electrode was MISSING from the sparkplug. . . in the #4 cylinder. (I had taken the heads down with the sparkplugs still in them to leave everything as close to as I dissassembled it so they could figure out the mystery)

 

His guess (and he stressed it was a guess, he's not sure exactly what happened) is that the sparkplug grounding electrode let go, made the noise I heard, when the engine would have REALLY started making sounds in about 100 miles or so, if not less (grenade #1). He said also the Engine needed to be decked, and asked about overheating. I said the car had never overheated when my friend owned it, but who knows. He also stated that if the head gasket hadn't already blown, that it was about to (grenade #2).

 

This means all new OEM pistons. I don't plan on turbo-ing this engine, and when I do build a powerhouse, it'll be out of a different block. This just needs to get me decent power, and be reliable.

 

Looks like the crankshaft will only need to be polished, and the cylinders were out of round, so they need to be honed. This engine will be brand new.

 

He mentioned it'd be a good idea to get my injectors tested to make sure i wasnt getting low fuel pressure in one cylinder and possibly detonation, maybe causing the end of the grounding electrode to come off (doing just as a precaution, why not! its all apart). The one place in town that can check injectors can't test mine. So off to the bay area to find a shop who can. that'll be next week sometime. In the meantime, the intake was completly dissassembled, and is going to be cleaned, and masked to be painted VHT Wrinkle red.

 

The heads have also been pressure tested and vacuum tested, all checking out 100%. They were also hot tanked, and holy hell, they look BRAND NEW. it was shining through the plastic bag, super shiny aluminum.

 

I think the only thing I'm worrying about right now is all the little o-rings and gaskets everywhere. I worried I'll miss one or something. That intake was incredibly complex to dissassemble with the fuel rail, the 10 different sensors and all the wiring on top. but i'll get it back together I took about 60 pictures, and I have the FSM.

 

Figured since I have to get the injectors cleaned and flow tested, Might as well clean up the intake. . . and polish it. . . and ah hell, paint it STi RED. bwahahahaha.

 

Just took the masking tape off, and I have since cleaned up all the little parts that needed a touch up after the painting, but these pics are right before that. Can you spot where I hung it?

 

Still, it turned out kick@$$

 

 

If people are interested, I can post all my pics up to this. the dirty, cleaning, primering, and well, you get the idea...

 

The build right now has only consisited of dissassembly and cleaning so far... and calls from either the shop where i purchased my clutch (saying it'll be a week) or calls from the machine shop stating my new piston had a damaged ringland and they have to reorder it. So as of now, i'm going through every bracket and part that i can that shows even a little bit, and cleaning each up. That way when it does go back together, not only will it be clean, but it'll look sahweeet!

 

First the engine bay...

start! Dirtyness. ew

 

 

 

Then to cleanliness!!! Look at that crossmember!!

 

 

 

and the hood ya as soon as i get started... off I go

 

 

 

I liked this one because you can see the firewall is the same color as the bumper again. woohoo!! but mostly just screwing around... is that where the power steering pump should be????

 

 

I like that you can basically put your hands anywhere in the engine compartment and your hands stay clean. neat!

 

Also cleaned up a few other things. . .

 

-Cleaned starter

-Cleaned alternator

-Cleaned random heater pipes, and hoses

-Cleaned oil pump

-Cleaned Washer Reservoir

-Cleaned Water Transport (from upper rad hose to both heads)

-Cleaned and painted oil pan

-Cleaned and painted engine accessory brackets

-Cleaned and painted Intake Manifold (you've seen!)

-Cleaned and painted Battery Tie Down

-Cleaned and painted metal part of dummy cover over accessory belts.

-Cleaned and painted little spark plug brackets that attach to intake (they were green! like painted green metal! wierd!)

 

First the Oil pan:

Before:

 

 

 

After cleaning:

 

 

After Painting:

 

[NuclearBacon]

The A/C Bracket and power steering bracket were also stained aluminum, so I went down and got some aluminum paint (which I think is just silver that they relabel but whateva) , cleaned up the brackets and painted them. I know I know. Its totally un-necessary, but when the rest of the engine looks awesome, so will the brackets :

 

 

 

Now onto the Intake, which I think turned out AMAZING thanks to $chumacher for the DIY article and searching for the correct paint to use.

I used a self etching primer (green) and then VHT Wrinkle Red.

 

(I know you've seen the finished product, but heres the process)

 

This is the intake before cleaning:

 

 

Then clean and masked off (which took a while)

 

 

 

 

Then I primered it using 4 coats following the directions on the can:

 

 

 

And then came the VHT Wrinkle Red. Mmm Mmm Mmmm!:

 

 

 

 

after sitting for a little bit:

 

So thats about where I'm at... Everything is CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN!!!

 

Heres a few more random shots that were kinda cool

 

 

Inside Cylinder 4

 

 

And dont even get me started when the front wheel bearing went on it.... Ugh

 

[NuclearBacon]

The rebuild begins!!!! Parts were delivered to me late thursday. I then loaded up my turbo legacy with all the engine bits to assemble the longblock and headed south 177 miles to my parents house to assemble it with my dad.

 

We unloaded all 43 boxes (haha) and set up our assembly table. First we took the polished crank out of the bag, and set up the connecting rods with bearings already set in place (and tolerance checked) by my machine shop.

 

 

We then attached the connecting rods to the crankshaft with a generous amount of a moly-based assembly lube, and torqued to spec.

 

 

Now it was time to get the block setup to recieve its newly polished crank. We took it out of the bag, fresh from the machine shop (decked, hot tanked, and bore'd 0.50 over) The machine shop also placed the main bearings and then finger-tightened a few bolts to keep the block together for transport.

 

 

 

We split the block...

 

 

We then opened up the engine reseal kit. This kit has EVERYTHING. all the little pieces of rubber, all the pieces of sticky foam, everything!!! never before has someone gotten so excited about getting new seals for waterjacket bolts. In this picture, only the o-rings and a few gaskets are shown.

 

 

We then set the 1-3 side of the block down, and prepared it with RTV-UltraGrey and more assembly lube on the bearings, and placed the 4 o-rings. (the RTV looks like it touched the o-ring passages. I assure you, it does not)

 

 

 

 

The Crank was then gently placed down, and the other side of the block was also prepared with assembly lube.

 

 

 

Then the two block-halves were brought back together!! ...and torqued to spec in the proper order (per FSM)

 

 

Heres a picture setting up the pistons to recieve their new rings.

 

 

And the piston(s) themselves!

 

 

 

 

Then. . .

 

 

The Oil ring was wrong. It didnt fit. The lip that pushes out the upper and lower rings was too tall to fit inside the ringland.

 

 

 

Keep in mind, I'm learning as I go, my dad has built many many engines, but never a subaru, but we both knew that the oil ring:

 

A) shouldnt be snug

should sit inside the ringland and the two rings and hold it in place should stick out more then the oil ring

C) . . . should fit

 

 

This shot you can see the lip that pushes the upper and lower ring out, not allowing the ring to enter the ringland.

 

 

So!! first of all, I'd like to say that I dont blame my machine shop. I think that when the pistons were ordered, he asked for the matching set of rings, and they just mismatched them.

[NuclearBacon]

I recieved the rings the very next day around 9 am, but waited til later in the week to install because of various family gatherings. Then! it began!

 

During the day, I would build the intake, waiting for my dad to get home to help with the pistons.

 

Heres the intake beginning the assembly:

 

 

and it completed!

 

 

 

Ok! to the pistons!!! Numero Uno!!

 

 

Oiling the next cylinder prior to insertion go dad! your light is smashing.

 

 

Set-up for the next cylinder:

 

 

All the pistons are in!

 

 

Now for the rear main seal (since we had it up this way, made it very easy.

 

 

 

And the end of day 1? the end of that evening anyway

 

 

[NuclearBacon]

Good morning! Onto the next section! Got the completed shortblock onto the engine stand, and sealed up all the plugs.

 

 

Did a lot more detail work...

 

 

...(like washing every... single... bolt before it went back into the block.. and using anti-sieze on anything going into aluminum, and permitex (permetex?) high temp thread sealant on bolts going into waterjackets (but that was in a previous post )

 

Spun the engine upside down and assembled the oil baffle and pickup

 

 

Then attached the heads, Cam pulleys, oil pan, water pump, thermostat, oil pump, upper water pipe crossover guy, and other various little bits.

 

 

 

Then sealed it up for the day.

 

 

Organized the tools. it was interesting to see what you need to assemble an engine.

 

 

/End day 2

 

And away we go with day three!! Timing components went on next, all new belt, new pulleys, new tensioner. and you can see how well the oil pan looks all clean and painted!

 

 

After ensuring the timing was correct, and taking an hour or so to make sure all the valves were clearanced, we buttoned up the front

 

 

Drum roll.....

 

.......!!!!

 

Then the intake went on

 

 

So after that I went flying in a BEAUTIFUL new cirrus TURBO. mmmm What a great day!

 

Da plane boss

 

 

Bay bridge and Sf thru the fog at 3300 ft

 

 

 

Engine building and a flight around the bay! doesnt get much better then that!

 

back on track... I landed safely, loaded up the car, and headed back home!

 

Heck yeah rear engine turbo legacy woop woop!

 

 

 

Took the engine out and got it on the engine stand...

 

[NuclearBacon]

Got it up onto my table to have it recieve its new plate.

 

 

I recieved a replacement plate from arcadia25 (which looked great and would have worked for me) But i stripped out one of the screws, and they're a pain to locate.. .so i said screw it (oh man no i didnt! ha!) and picked up the new plate with ALLEN HEAD SCREWS! finally!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Then installed my newly refinished light weight exedy flywheel with new pilot bearing (and throwout bearing, but no pic )

 

 

Then the clutch was placed (Stage 1 organic exedy)

 

 

and pressure plate

 

 

Ya i know its dinner time.. but lets just see if maybe i can get it buttoned up and secure... Also didnt mention the Perrin LW pulley, and Group N Motor mounts

 

 

Ya i do

 

And this is where we leave it for tonight..

 

 

Tomorrow morning leads with stopping by the dealer for two stupid vapor return lines that broke on me, getting a new fuel filter and then buttoning up the rest, filling it with oil, following the oil pressure build-up procedure (i'm just disconnecting the coil, and pulling the fuel pump relay) and turning over til the light goes out.

[NuclearBacon]

Headed to the machine shop to drop off the wrong rings, and asked about motor oil and break in procedures. He gave me a paper he typed up from Hastings (my rings manufacturer)

 

Engine Break-In Procedure

 

1) Adjust valves, carb, and ignition timing as accurate as possible before starting engine

 

2) Start engine and set throttle to a range of 1500-2000 r.p.m. Run engine for 15-20 minutes at this setting. Be sure to check for oil pressure, and coolant temp.

 

3) Shut down engine, check valve adjustment. Check fluid levels.

 

4) Ring break in as follows...

 

Make a test run at 30 mph and accelerate at full throttle to 50 mph. Let engine decellerate normally back down to 30 mph. Repeat the acceleration cycle from 30 to 50 at LEAST 10 times. No further break in is necessary. If traffic conditions will not permit this, accelerate the engine rapidly several times through the intermediate gears during the check run.

 

The Object is to apply a load to the engine for short periods of time and in rapid succession soon after engine warm up. This action thrusts the piston rings against the cylinder wall with increased pressure and results in accelerated ring seating.

 

Change oil and filter (10w30 dino oil) after 500 miles. Then change regularly

 

This will be my break in procedure.

 

Well its all together as of 7:21pm tuesday night. Putting me right under 12 hours straight on it today. it sits with fluids all ready to turn over for the first time....

 

except...

 

I can't find the F*ING fuse that runs the fuel pump. after burning up the last hour of sunlight looking, reading, searching. NADA. nothing. So now I need someones superior intelect to tell me which fuse is the stupid fuel pump. its not labeled, and i know the relay is way under the dash with the three... but it has to have a fuse.. i just want to build oil pressure before the initial fire.... anyone??

 

. . . LATER ON . . .

 

Feelin a bit more calm, but still confused! I even got the wiring diagram and followed the fuel pump around through the ECU etc etc... no love.

 

So lets see some pics!!!! Get that moral up!

 

 

 

 

 

UPDATE..

 

Going to undo the 4 screws on the passenger floorwell in the trunk, and UNPLUG the fuel pump. Easy peasy fo sheezy.

[NuclearBacon]

This morning I woke up nervous and excited. I pushed the car out into the driveway, pulled the carpet up, and found the magic plate. I've seen it on my turbo legacy, I just figured ... actually I just didnt think about it.

 

 

Unplugged and set to go (the coil too)... I turned the engine over... ..waiting for the oil light to turn off... Doing a max set of 12 seconds per key turn, I waited for the oil light to turn off..... on the 5th set of key tuns, I still had a solid light. I figured that the assembly lube that I used and coated the metal surfaces with, would give me about 5 seconds of run time without oil being circulated if for some reason the pump wasn't functioning.

 

Heres the oil pan and my fancy cool magnetic drain plug + group n mounts!

 

 

I plug in the fuel pump, secure it, connect the coil, check the fluids for the 100,000,000th time, and sit inside the driver seat.

 

...and I sit.

 

Keeping in mind I put a new fuel filter in, had the entire intake apart, and depressurized the fuel system a month before... I turn the key... after about 6 seconds,...

 

The engine comes to life! And the oil pressure light instantly goes off!!!

 

...sidenote. My thoughts on the oil pressure light... I think that the starter couldnt turn the engine over fast enough to give the proper pressure to turn the light off, yet enough speed or function to allow the pump to suck up oil and transport it where it needed to be on initial startup...

 

I allow the car to warm up, idle for a bit, and I turn it off to check the vitals. Nothing out the bottom. nothing out the top (except smoke, but a normal amount it seemed, no odd smells etc)

 

--Insert Video of Initial Startup Here Soon!--

 

Everything looks great!! I then go for my break in run. I drive 1.3 miles to the location, then get to third gear for my 30-50 runs. I do 20 sets, and the engine feels GREAT!

 

So I give her a good wash, and take her around for about 60 miles.

 

Oil = perfect

Coolant = perfect

Throttle feel = perfect.

Everything = perfect.

 

I'll check tomorrow as I drive. But I believe I'm in pretty good shape.

 

Heres some pics for a parting shot I think I might sleep in the drivers seat. . .

 

 

 

Sub + Helmet. You never know when you'll need one!

 

 

 

[NuclearBacon]

Sweet! Got my prodrive sticker in, checked my tolerances, and put the belt cover on the engine. Took some final pics

 

 

 

 

 

What a fish sees. . .

 

 

As of this moment, the car has 1200 miles on it Labour of love or whatever the @#% the saying is. Car runs PERFECT !

Mostly wanted to share with everyone on this site. When I first got here, I could barely change sparkplugs...

 

...now look at me

 

Thank you everyone! I owe this build to you!

 

*bows*

Edited October 26, 2010 by NuclearBacon

[hankosolder2]

Well done! I hope it gives you some good service.

 

Nathan

[Olnick]

WOW! Just WOW!