my last car (maybe)

[Milton_Havoc]

 

well im looking to add what might be my last additon to my garage.

 

I am considering an subaru gl hatchback. Im new to subaru and its drive systems, never dealt with awd, and have no idea about the different engines and awd systems. BUT, im not new to tunning cars. I have a 300zx(z32) and an 84 200sx with a(200hp ka-t).

I would love an education on subarus!

my insperation comes from two places:

my best friend had a gl-hatch, and that thing was a tank.

the new sti hatches are beautiful style wise,and i plan on a complementing style update to the gl(nothing crazy like halo's or front fascia swaps)

 

Now, before i jump into one i have a lot of questions and statements.

 

my first statement is:

if i do buy one, i plan on doing a frame off restoration/update.

Mainly just to cure some of the rust that i hear is problematic in these cars.

get rid of any wiring thats not needed, and bring it up to par for driving.

I want to update the drivetrain/suspension/motor.

 

wich brings me to the questions:

i want to find a suitable motor for this car.

i dont want a crazy 500hp(i have a z32 for that)

a modest 200hp would be great.

I read a lot of the people dropping in an ej(?) to other older cars.

am i stuck in the same boat as the justy's with just a small engine compartment?

As far as updating the suspension and drivetrain goes, how hard would it be to bring it up to date with current awd?

 

what is the motor thats in it good for, hp wise? any chance of building it up to my hp expectations?

 

thanks for the help and ideas in advance!

[SoobieDoo]

Here's all I got:

 

which brings me to the questions:

i want to find a suitable motor for this car. Okay

i dont want a crazy 500hp(i have a z32 for that) Good

a modest 200hp would be great. Sure

I read a lot of the people dropping in an ej(?) to other older cars.

am i stuck in the same boat as the justy's with just a small engine compartment? No, many EJ's have been put in hatch's. EJ25+mods for that HP.

As far as updating the suspension and drivetrain goes, how hard would it be to bring it up to date with current awd? AWD would be pretty easy, but you can only go so far with the suspension.

 

what is the motor thats in it good for, hp wise? 80 any chance of building it up to my hp expectations? Yes...with mucho $$$

thanks for the help and ideas in advance!

[Milton_Havoc]

thanks for that, thats a good start.

 

any thoughts on the franken motor like the guy put in the subaru brat?

 

im going to look on google and see if i can find some builds of gl hatches.

 

what do you mean "so far" with the suspension?

better put, the suspension on the 200sx is all customly put together, but we share some components with other s-chassis cars. Is the gl like this too or am i stuck with just "it will work" suspension?

[Turbone]

You have to get to later gens for the lego connection. Anything thats EA81 (80-88 GL) will have to have custom stuff made for it. EA82 (85-93) does have some plug & play stuff available from newer gen (search this forum for 5 lug swap).

What the EA81 gen has going for it is simplicity. You can fab up stuff for it some what easily.

Theres lots of projects in this forum, take the time to read thru some that pertain too what you want.

And as a example of what can be done to a Hatch, this is mine.

[Milton_Havoc]

i think a came across your build a few months back. None the less looking good.

 

my direction with the hatchback would be just a little lower than stock with some decently stiff suspension. Something in the tradition of rally-x or autox.

i know wheel selection is pretty mute for the hatchbacks.

 

as far as engine, i know ill probably sound like the typical ricer here, but what about the sti engines or at least the wrx?

 

disk brakes all around?

 

i guess coilovers would be taking my wishes to far?

[renob123]

i think a came across your build a few months back. None the less looking good.

 

my direction with the hatchback would be just a little lower than stock with some decently stiff suspension. Something in the tradition of rally-x or autox.

i know wheel selection is pretty mute for the hatchbacks.

 

as far as engine, i know ill probably sound like the typical ricer here, but what about the sti engines or at least the wrx?

 

disk brakes all around?

 

i guess coilovers would be taking my wishes to far?

 

I think you'll be hard-pressed to get the answers you want here with the questions you're asking. This forum is full of people who understand the trade-offs between time, money and performance. Ask the right questions, though, and the help flows like wine:banana:

 

For example, yes you can put a WRX engine in there. With all of the time and money you put into it, you could have just worked nights at Denny's and saved enough to buy a WRX. That includes getting the brakes, suspension and transmission up to that level as well.

 

Another example: "what is the motor thats in it good for, hp wise? any chance of building it up to my hp expectations?" It's good for more than you can handle, and the chances are good to build it to your horsepower expectations. Expect it to last for about 10 seconds or expect to pay a lot of money and spend a lot of time. Probably way more than an EJ swap.

 

I'll ask you the same things I ask everyone: What do you plan to do with the car, and how much money can you spend? If you give us those constraints (along with your fabrication skills/resources, which I can guarantee are better than mine:grin:), we'll be better equipped to give you more meaningful answers.

 

Jacob

[Milton_Havoc]

well i read the thread that i bumped, about the ej22 hatch swap.

I saw how involed it was with the suspension stuff that he did.

 

When i first posted, i didnt see the rest of the threads in this forum. I didnt know it was only showing from "this month". so ive gathered some more info since then. It seems like the ej will fit my needs.

 

I understand about the wrx swap, but on the other side of the same coin, i dont want a wrx or i would buy one....right now....(hint hint). the basis for that question was of a performance nature since as far as I know(and i dont know much about subaru) that is a high end car in the subbie lineup.

 

 

The "motor thats in it question" thas another 2sided coin as well.

The nissan i have comes with a ca20e, rated at something like 85hp.

the rods are litteraly the size of a pencil so most people disregaurd it.

There are some people though that have slapped a turbo on it and been running 200hp without a tune or a care in the world for about 4 years now, so blowing up in 10 min has to many varriable to make a stable claim like that. Thats why i aske. Also another good example is the KA that was int the 240sx's they used to run from those things like the plauge, now all of a sudden they are churning out 6oohp on stock internals.

 

My plans for it: a fun little car, along with some rally-x ,auto-x, snow driving and some fun during the dry times as well(lol). Im a driver!!

 

welding and fab skills are in the negative but im smart enough to learn and have an aquaintence thats been doing it since i was born.

Money wise, i know from working on my two other cars that nothing realy stays within a "budget" you either spend more or come to a stopping point of realization.

[Milton_Havoc]

so i guess my first question is:

 

on the buid thread that i read, the guy used VW suspension with e81.. perch.

Is that the norm or is there an easier way? Im kind of assuming that there is no aftermarket suspension for a hatchback?

 

Also he used spliced axels from a xt6 along with rotors and hubs, is that purely for the 5lug swap, or is that neccesarry? he never stated in his thread?

 

In another forum someone mentioned : "that since subaru was going back to its original suspension design, retrofitting on older models would be eaiser"

any truth to that?

[renob123]

well i read the thread that i bumped, about the ej22 hatch swap.

I saw how involed it was with the suspension stuff that he did.

 

When i first posted, i didnt see the rest of the threads in this forum. I didnt know it was only showing from "this month". so ive gathered some more info since then. It seems like the ej will fit my needs.

 

I understand about the wrx swap, but on the other side of the same coin, i dont want a wrx or i would buy one....right now....(hint hint). the basis for that question was of a performance nature since as far as I know(and i dont know much about subaru) that is a high end car in the subbie lineup.

 

 

The "motor thats in it question" thas another 2sided coin as well.

The nissan i have comes with a ca20e, rated at something like 85hp.

the rods are litteraly the size of a pencil so most people disregaurd it.

There are some people though that have slapped a turbo on it and been running 200hp without a tune or a care in the world for about 4 years now, so blowing up in 10 min has to many varriable to make a stable claim like that. Thats why i aske. Also another good example is the KA that was int the 240sx's they used to run from those things like the plauge, now all of a sudden they are churning out 6oohp on stock internals.

 

My plans for it: a fun little car, along with some rally-x ,auto-x, snow driving and some fun during the dry times as well(lol). Im a driver!!

 

welding and fab skills are in the negative but im smart enough to learn and have an aquaintence thats been doing it since i was born.

Money wise, i know from working on my two other cars that nothing realy stays within a "budget" you either spend more or come to a stopping point of realization.

 

Ok, given that answer, I recommend you look into what the aviation people are doing with our motors. They document how far they've taken these engines much more than people here do. I'd guess that most of the people here who have done that research before have opted for an EJ swap.

 

so i guess my first question is:

 

on the buid thread that i read, the guy used VW suspension with e81.. perch.

Is that the norm or is there an easier way? Im kind of assuming that there is no aftermarket suspension for a hatchback?

 

Also he used spliced axels from a xt6 along with rotors and hubs, is that purely for the 5lug swap, or is that neccesarry? he never stated in his thread?

 

In another forum someone mentioned : "that since subaru was going back to its original suspension design, retrofitting on older models would be eaiser"

any truth to that?

 

If you're shooting for 200hp out of an EA81 hatch, there is no known bolt-on suspension that would be adequate for that power.

 

The people who did these things won't bite if you ask them questions. I responded in this thread because I saw I was mentioned as "the guy". I thought it was a little odd given the atmosphere of this forum. The VW strut cartridge has been done once, to my knowledge. I suspect the spliced XT6 axles are because he's using an EJ transmission. There are different spline counts, lengths, etc. between the different generations. Depending on the route you take, you may or may not have to deal with that.

 

The comment on the other forum is almost certainly directed at EJ-era stuff. Subaru, to my knowledge, is not going back to the suspension they were using in the '70s and '80s.

 

Jacob

[renob123]

Oh yeah, and as far as an "easier way" for the front suspension, you should look into the 5-lug swap. It lets you run EJ goodies up front. I'm not sure if it's easier or not.

 

Jacob

[Milton_Havoc]

haha, I was referring to Pooparu's build thread.

I said "the/that guy" because i was on my ipod and didnt want to multi task any more than what i was.

 

i think you missed part of what i said(sorry for the long replys)

yeah ive come to the conclusion that the ej is the way to go. so its what im planning for.

 

pooparu was using a different trans(iirc) and then stated he was going to all wheel drive, as he had just been running in rwd for the duration of the build.

I dont think hes been on in a while.

 

I didnt see your build thread, but ill look for it....and respectfully read it Thuroghly. youll have to excuse me though, im still learning the nominclature of subaru.

 

yes that comment was aimed at new erra stuff. But, the guy was talking about using new era stuff on "oldschool" cars more specifically the gl and the brat.

Im not worried about "easier" per say. i mean i dont realy "want" to fabricate and weld a ton of miss-matched stuff together, but im no stranger to putting stuff together and doing some brainstorming.

 

Ok, let me get some perspective:

so im just assuming that 200hp is a good base hp for a hatch. It would keep it up with other cars and make it competative in motorsports.

Is the weight relative enough in a gl-hatch(dont know what the slang for one is) that somehting in the mid 100hp range would be sufficient? For most of the cars that i own, 200hp is the base competative number. 250, takes you into the realm of walking away from srt4's and stock turbo cars. The z is the exeption because of the weight,300hp is baseline slow for cars in its class.

[Milton_Havoc]

ok, now i see your thread. Turns out it was the first one i read. good info but long reads, i still have to go back and read it probably twice again so i can take in everything and understand it. I get the basics though. the nominclature threw me off because i didnt understand what two engines you were using parts from. how similar is the brat in the terms of that swap to the gl-hatch?

[renob123]

ok, now i see your thread. Turns out it was the first one i read. good info but long reads, i still have to go back and read it probably twice again so i can take in everything and understand it. I get the basics though. the nominclature threw me off because i didnt understand what two engines you were using parts from. how similar is the brat in the terms of that swap to the gl-hatch?

 

Yeah, I thought you were referring to me as the guy that did the Frankenmotor, since I started the thread on it.

 

I was wondering if you'd ask this:) The EJ series is the newer stuff, including Legacies and WRXs and such. EA81s include Brats and hatches, among others. XT6s are oddballs, but they're included in the EA82 series, which came after EA81s. There's a lot of confusion when you start learning because of overlaps, especially if you look globally. There are a few years where all three series were sold. In the US, there are some years where 2 series were sold in the same year.

 

The short answer is that the hatch is really similar to a gen 2 Brat or any other EA81-series car, especially up front. For specifics, just search. For example, hatches and Brats use the same doors, but different door glass.

 

Jacob

[Milton_Havoc]

Thanks that helped alot.

 

So now i can ask you directly. it was said in your thread that traction was a problem and that the brat became scary fast...sorry torqy...after the swap.

 

how are you going about bringing the suspension up to par? or are you just gonna leave it?

*i read where you said you had "something in mind"* < care to elaborate?

also what kind of tires are you running?

 

I have a friend(same guy that did my nissan stuff) that can probably do some custom stuff for me, if im in the same boat as with the nissan. As far as struts/shocks/camber, there was no existent product for us, so he started from scratch. Would that be the route to go or is it overkill?

 

haha thanks now i gotta do a spread sheet or something to see which swap choice would be more suitable to me.

 

but the franken motor does sound very apealing.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Milton_Havoc

[Milton_Havoc]

cant figure out how to delete this post.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Milton_Havoc

[renob123]

Thanks that helped alot.

 

So now i can ask you directly. it was said in your thread that traction was a problem and that the brat became scary fast...sorry torqy...after the swap.

 

how are you going about bringing the suspension up to par? or are you just gonna leave it?

 

I have a friend(same guy that did my nissan stuff) that can probably do some custom stuff for me, if im in the same boat as with the nissan. As far as struts/shocks/camber, there was no existent product for us, so he started from scratch. Would that be the route to go or is it overkill?

 

The Brat is for rallyx, so I'll never have enough traction:)

 

Traction on the street will not be a problem after the next transmission goes in, I hope. I'm working on dropping/stiffening the front and stiffening the rear as well.

 

I'll elaborate once I have something that works. If I posted every retarded, ill-planned, poorly researched or physically impossible idea I had, this place would be a disaster area.

 

Jacob

[Milton_Havoc]

oh, i missed the rallyx part. Im looking to get into that here in CO. i want to go out to moab at least once as well. Rumor has it they are working on actualy stages here in CO, for grass-roots!!!!

 

 

i get you about posting the ideas.

I guess in my mind i saw the gl-hatch as being floaty. I found i was wrong in that assumption. i guess S.T. braces and hatch brace will help some.

[vagen]

Just to toss in my $.02. The EJ22 (modern stuff) depending on year has roughly twice the torque your stock EA81 has and close to twice the HP too. your GL weighs less than most of the cars you listed so HP/lb will be much higher than you think. An engine producing 135-142hp in a car weighing around 2000lb will make for a very quick car.

[Milton_Havoc]

thankyou for that^

that was one of my major questions.

[GeneralDisorder]

1. I think 200 HP is too much for a slightly lowered hatch without a complete suspension change. With that much power they *are* "floaty" under full acceleration. The suspension just isn't stiff enough even with upgraded sway bars and being the rear is a torsion bar there is no easy way to stiffen it - especially in a lowered application as there just isn't much room to work with between the trailing arm and the shock tower. Even EA82 rear coil-over's effect about a 4" lift when added to the EA81 so that is not a viable option for you.

 

2. Traction is going to be an issue - you will have to go to AWD to get that much power to the ground in a sane, non-tire-eating way.

 

3. Making a reliable 200 HP on the stock EA81 would be a challenge and expensive. The 200 HP turbo/super charged EA81's that RAM has built for aircraft use are in the range of $10,000 and while doing some of the work yourself and bartering/trading for stuff can mitigate some of the costs I wouldn't at all be surprised if it cost me $5,000 to build something close to what they have done.

 

4. I think the only sane, and viable option here is to go EJ. And as renob123 (Jacob) and myself are quickly finding out - that basically means you have to redesign the entire car. Which brings me to my final point:

 

5. 200 HP is right around the point at which you no longer have an '80's hatch with a motor swap - to do it right what you have is a WRX with a hatch body transplanted in place of the WRX body. That's how you have to start thinking about this build. Jacob is able to make some trade-offs because his Brat is purpose-built for his Rally-X hobby and as such does not need to perform well on the street - it needs to perform at or below 40 MPH (probably less than that most of the time) in the dirt. But even he is finding out that much of the EA equipment is not up to that amount of power and torque.

 

I love the hatch - mine is getting an EJ22 with Delta cams - but much over 150 HP is not in my game plan for it. 200 HP on an EA81 is SCARY without all the other stuff that needs to go with that much power. Suspension, brakes, etc.

 

GD

[Milton_Havoc]

I wasnt aware of the weight to hp ratio of the car when i first started out.

 

everyone keeps posting the same thing over and over though, so allow me to state it one more time:

 

I am greatful that you guys cleard up the base "usefull" hp for me. I am deff gonna keep that in mind. If the stock ej22 is more than enough, than thats what i will use. I HAVE DECIDED TO USE THE EJ ENGINE!

but for a better reference can you guys liken the hp/tq you guys have with your ej swaps to another car?

 

AWD was expected as I began to read more of pooparoos thread, just gotta find what trans will work for my application. Will the stock axels hold up to this kind of swap?

As far as suspension goes. Im still at the point where im wondering if the stock suspension components can be strenghted to work..? or custom spring rates. I see that even most of the grassroots rally cars here are not lowered and some of them autox their cars. I dont know if a drop is neccasary, just some stiffer suspension.

 

oh, and this probably wont be a dd since im discovering that its better suited to playing in the dirt and mud. i had originally planed it to be a winter car that i could beat on and take on some fun roads out here in CO. Im compleetly ok with that though, i have other cars for pure pavement fun.

 

Thanks guys and keep it comming

[Yo'J]

I think you are on the right track. The ej engine is a great motor and produces a lot of power for ea series car. I have an ej22 in my brat and a dr 5spd trans. It is a little useless in 2wd as the tires just spin if you try to takeoff quick. Now thats a heavier body than your hatch. With AWD and a few more ponies it might be faster than a stock sti but with out the suspension to help cover for it, that might just make it a tad uncontrollable. The axle bit is the tough bit, as you are forced to go custom. Australia for example won't allow you to use modified (welded) axles so they have to split the trans to insert different stub ends.

 

I personally like the full undercarriage replacment idea of using the whole drivetrain out of your donor car, engine, trans, crossmembers, rear diff, axles, knuckles, brakes, steering components, fully modified rear end. That is some work though. Like this guys..... http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=96298&page=3

[Milton_Havoc]

^that is the thread i needed to see. Its a bit intimidating, but i can always ask for help.

 

how similar are the hatch rear struts to the brat?

[renob123]

^that is the thread i needed to see. Its a bit intimidating, but i can always ask for help.

 

how similar are the hatch rear struts to the brat?

 

There are no rear struts. I think the shocks are the same, though.

 

Jacob