Slow cranking - Delayed start on Forester

[wtdash]

-1998 Forester w/162K miles (only owned it for a 1.5K of those miles) so don't know much about its history of maintenance.

 

 

-When 1st starting it cranks slowly and finally starts after 2-3 seconds. It's bit better when warm. With winter coming, I'm worried it won't start @ all below 30.

 

-I've checked my battery connections and cables

- Re-tightened the starter cables

- Swapped the battery w/my '90 Legacy - no difference - Legacy spins right up and starts almost instantly.

 

-Fresh plugs, good wires, tried a different coil pack.

 

 

-When starting this morning the starter didn't 'catch'...but did on the 2nd try. I think it's the starter solenoid not engaging the flywheel? There's a whirring/spinning noise, but the engine doesn't turn over.

 

This has happened maybe 3-4 times over the last 2-3 weeks.

 

I'm suspecting the Starter - unknown condition/age, but wanted to hear what else to check.

 

I've read you can replace the 'brushes/contacts' in the starter/solenoid?

 

 

Thanks

Td

[Fairtax4me]

Might be worth looking in the starer solenoid at the contacts. They commonly go bad on the older soobs, and are easily replaceable.

Did you check the connection for the ground cable on the engine? That one generally gets overlooked.

 

The battery may be weak. And your legacy battery may not have enough oomph to turn the bigger higher compression 2.5 that's in the Forester. Check out the label on the battery and see if you can find how many cold cranking amps it is rated.

[wtdash]

 

Did you check the connection for the ground cable on the engine? That one generally gets overlooked.

 

I'll double-check...I may have missed it.

 

The battery may be weak. And your legacy battery may not have enough oomph to turn the bigger higher compression 2.5 that's in the Forester. Check out the label on the battery and see if you can find how many cold cranking amps it is rated.

The batteries are rated the same @ 625/525cca, IIRC. Both are right @ 2 years old, but different brands.

 

Thanks,

Todd

[Allpar Mod]

You mentioned a whirring/spinning noise. If I read this correctly, that sounds like a bendix drive in the starter not engaging. This is the drive that pushes out the gear to engage the flywheel to turn the engine to start it. When that goes bad, all you hear is a whirring noise when you hit the key. The starter won't engage the flywheel. A starter gradually going south can and will act slowly as it's trying to pull a lot of juice to turn the internal armature. Combine this with the bendix not always engaging and it sounds like a trip to either the yard or parts store is in your short future.

 

My gut says you need a new starter and soon as it's iminent failure sounds quite likely. It's always a good idea to look at the ground wires when there is a puzzling electrical issue and it cannot hurt for preventative maintenance, but I do think that the starter is dying.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Allpar Mod

[wtdash]

So, if the solenoid is/going bad, would it crank slowly? Or are they 2 different parts of the starter?

 

Thanks,

td

[Allpar Mod]

Not necesarily and not usually. Yes, it's two different parts. The solenoid basically acts like a relay, engaging the bendix drive and "mating" the starter to the flywheel when activated. When you hear of times where the starter still operates after the key is moved off of the "start" position is usually because the solenoid is stuck in the "closed" position and continues to feed power to the starter after the engine has caught. A solenoid is in the "open" position at rest just like any other relays in the car not receiving power at any given time. There's always some power being fed to the starting circuit (constant hot) regardless of whether you have the key in the ignition or not so this is why this specific type of malfunction can occur. This is a reason why it is important to disconnect the battery when servicing a starter regardless of make or model of vehicle.

 

A starter is basically not much more than an electric motor incorporating the bendix which pushes out the center gear to mate with the teeth on the flywheel turning the motor to start the combustion and firing process. The solenoid engages and sends the power to the starter to do what it is designed to do. Moving the key to the "run" position after the engine catches shuts off power to the solenoid which, in turn, disengages the starter and the bendix retracts the gear by eliminating power to the starter itself.

 

Now, if the connections between the battery, other wiring, and the solenoid are corroded or the wiring is faulty, the starter will malfunction to varying degrees depending on exactly what the wiring issue is.

 

However, when it is said that the starter makes a whirring sound when activated but doesn't engage the flywheel, that is a sign of a faulty bendix drive not engaging the center gear to the flywheel. Combine this with sluggish operation when it does try to work correctly, and I have to surmise that the starter is in need of replacement.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Allpar Mod

[wtdash]

^^^Awesome info...thanks for the detailed explanation.

TD

[mdjdc]

Been where you are and I can tell you for certain that you are looking at a starter that is going bad. Don't wait as it will leave you stranded without notice. I have seen several of them lately.

 

Take yours off and have it rebuilt. You will have an OEM starter and it will be built correctly. If you get an aftermarket it will only be a cheap one made in Mexice and it will not last and longer than until just after the warranty is up on it.

 

Good Luck

[wtdash]

Take yours off and have it rebuilt.You will have an OEM starter and it will be built correctly

 

 

I was looking @ it and it doesn't look OEM...I'd have to pull it be sure.

 

I noticed that the Forester and Impreza used the same manual/5-speed starter from 1993 -2002, but the Legacy uses a different part number over the same years.

 

Doesn't make sense to me as all the engines/transmissions pretty much interchange...anyone know if the Legacy/Impreza/Forester starters will interchange?

 

Thanks

[mdjdc]

I just went over that with another board member this morning. The legacy starter does not have the nose cover that the forester/impreza starter does. I am assuming that they are not interchangable, but I don't see why. The engine tranny combo is the same, why should the starter not fit. Personally, I don't see what it would harm to put a legacy starter on there and see if the fozzie starts. First look at the throw of the bendix and see that they go out the same distance or you might wear at the torque converter if it is too short. That wouldn't be worth the try in my book. This is one part that is confusing as to why they are different in number and design.

[Allpar Mod]

The difference could be just an engineering change of some sort. Minor changes to any part during years of production of the same car are not uncommon. Unfortunately, when this happens, it often makes interchangability difficult if not impossible. It's always best to go with what any particular car calls for rather than experimenting with other parts, especially for something important like a starter. I'd advise caution just as md said.

 

While a reputable rebuilding shop is often the best way to go (if you can find one these days) and I do agree that a lot of the commonly sold rebuilds out there leave much to be desired quality wise, I seem to have had a lot of luck with Auto Zone. I've been using their rebuilds for over a decade now and never had one fail prematurely or had to return it right away. I put one of their starters in my truck a couple years ago and it has given me no trouble. Of course, you can low buck it and get a yard one used. They are a crap shoot and could go forever or die next week. Choice is your's.

 

You're welcome for the explanation. I hesitate sometimes to get that detailed because I never want to insult anyone's intelligence.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Allpar Mod

[wtdash]

You're welcome for the explanation. I hesitate sometimes to get that detailed because I never want to insult anyone's intelligence.

 

I know just enough to be dangerous, and a detailed explanation makes it useful for the next person w/an issue.

 

I'll update this quote when I replace the starter, which sounds like the route to take.

 

 

Thanks to all for you input....

[wtdash]

Since I can't update the original thread, i'll add it here.

 

I replaced the starter w/a known good used one w/79K - maybe a little better, but not much.

 

I was then messing w/the Neg. battery terminal and noticed there is a plastic piece that's like a 'guard' around the bottom and causes the terminal to sit 1/8" up on the post. I decided to 'risk it' and cut it off, then reattached the terminal to the post. Besides sitting lower on the post it also allows it tighten up better, as the post appears to be slightly tapered.

 

Results? It cranks better/stronger/faster.....so I'm thinking I had a bad ground all along.

 

TD

Edited October 29, 2010 by wtdash