97 sub legacy GT. Sometimes will start.

[ncwillus]

I own Subaru legacy gt with 200k miles. I myself have put about 70k on there. Well for about 2 years now i have fought starting problems with it. i have put at least 3 starters in it. The last time i took it to the dealer to repair its "contacts" and a month later i was stuck and it didn't start...again. The CEL is on and i have a problem with the knock sensor and EGR valve which i replaced two times and i don't think its that. Ive had it tuned recently and new timing belt and water-pump. What else could it be from making it start on a random bases? it will go for about 7-8 times, then ill have to tap the starter to crank it. Thanks.

[porcupine73]

Hello and welcome to the board. Sounds like you might need the modification adding an interposing relay between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid. If these were parts store alternators, sometimes those act differently than the genuine starter too.

[GeneralDisorder]

Yep - you need to add a relay to provide full battery current to the solenoid. Do a search or check the related threads at the bottom of this post. This is covered once a week around here.

 

GD

[Legback]

For what it's worth...I replaced my starter and had the same issue. Intermittent failures. It's a knuckle job right? It occurred to me that maybe I quit a little early on the starter mounting bolts. I went back in and re-tightened the bolts and never had problem since...(rata tat tat on my simulated wood desk). I mean...dug deep... from the aXX.... tight. Like you wanna kill it. Fixed it. Longer ratchet? Got change for a nickle? -T

[ncwillus]

Ok thanks guys, ill see what i can do. so its a defiantly a solenoid problem? ive noticed the starter and solenoid are one mounted piece can you buy them separate though?

[GeneralDisorder]

It's not the starter or the solenoid. It's the car's wireing. Add a relay to apply full battery current to the starter solenoid - your problem is you don't have enough current to fully engage the solenoid.

 

GD

[johnceggleston]

although the original post was for old gen cars, i followed it for my 97OBW and have had no starter trouble since. my car info: 12/05 i bought a 97 OBW w/ 98k miles, added starter relay a year later. the car now has 138k miles and i have had no starter problems since i added the relay.

 

thanks skip for the original post, 2003. (at some point someone helped mr by posting a diagram, but i think some of that stuff has been lost. i'm just glad the thread has not been lost.)

 

QUOTE from 2003:

 

There are currently several active posts on starter engagement problems.

I thought this may be of interest. (Please note, this article only refers to 1989 and earlier Subarus, newer Loyales MTs may have a clutch interrupt switch, see ** below)

 

First to dispel info given in reference to any relays involved.

There are none, repeat no relays come on a factory equipped car. As will be seen it is a reliable fix to add one, but there is no relay used for starter engagement.

 

The ignition switch, when in the start position, feeds battery voltage directly to the starter solenoid unless the vehicle has an automatic transmission. In this case, there is an inhibitor switch in the console which only allows the control voltage to reach the starter solenoid in the park or neutral position. Just a switch no relay.

(Note: Some may argue the starter solenoid is a relay, in an operational sense they are correct, in semantics -- I will refer to it as the factory does.)

 

**Newer Loyales may have a clutch pedal switch. This switch located up under the dash in the path of the pedal swing arm, is depressed and thus in a "closed" position, when the clutch pedal is in a fully depressed state.

 

If when you turn the ignition switch to the start position the starter fails to engage -

A) It is possible that a battery cable or it's connection is dirty, loose, or corroded - thus creating high resistance.

Here is a quick test.

Hold the ignition in the start position for five seconds. Open the hood and place your hand on all battery connections and cable ends to feel for a warm connection. IF the starter has engaged and there is some current passing through a connection with high resistance - heat will be generated. Green colored or other "odd looking" connections are always suspects.

It is possible that the starter solenoid internal contacts have burned and are not making full contact. While holding the ignition switch in the start position a sharp "rap" on the solenoid may jar the contacts into a closed position allowing the starter to engage.

If this is the case you can elect to repair/replace the contacts or replace the solenoid/starter.

C) If the above tests prove unsatisfactory, it is likely the ignition switch itself has problems. The starter solenoid needs a fair amount of current to energize. This puts the contacts in the ignition switch under duress. To test this, connect a "jumper" wire from the positive battery terminal to the small spade connector located on the starter solenoid. One will have to remove the factory connector before "jumping" the solenoid.

(Please make sure car is in neutral or Park before doing this test)

If the jumper wire allows the starter to engage, there are several fixes that can be employed.

 

1) Replace ignition switch - labor and $$ intensive, beyond the scope of this article.

 

2) Install a "Never Fail" button/ switch. This button (momentary switch) is wired to feed the control voltage to the starter solenoid, thus bypassing the ignition switch. A "make shift" solution at best. It will work and is a simple matter of wiring.

to wit:

a) Get a 10 amp momentary switch from the source of your choosing.

Find a suitable mounting point for said switch. Most dashes have several "blanks" to choose from, or mount it under the dash as a secret switch.

you will need a "feed voltage source".

You could

i) probe your fuse panel for an ignition switched "hot fuse".

ii) run a fused connection directly to the battery

iii) place a tap on the main ignition feed connector under the steering col. Since you will be running this voltage to the starter and through the bulkhead (firewall) a fused source should be used.

This "feeder" is connected to one side of the procured switch.

c) The other side of the switch is wired to the small spade connector on the starter solenoid. The proper method is to splice solder the wire to the existing wire, but some may stuff it under the female connector and slide the spade back in place. Please use a grommet or other form of protection when passing the wire through the bulkhead.

 

These connection methods will allow the use of the normal ignition switch start position but when it fails the "Never Fail" button is used. If you choose to simply put a female spade connector on this wire and plug it on to the starter solenoid, the "Never Fail" will be the only way to get the car to start.

 

3) The best method, in my admittedly feeble mind, is the addition

of a "start relay". This relay supplements the ignition switch and requires no "Never Fail" folderol (like in a case where some one borrows the car and you forget to tell them about the "Never Fail")

The relay is controlled by the ignition switch and it in turn feeds the current necessary for starter solenoid engagement.

An "auxiliary lighting" relay is a good choice, but any 12Vdc 10 amp relay will suffice. I mount mine under the hood and in the general location of the starter. This allows use of the factory female connector and simplifies getting a fused battery feed voltage.

Here is the wiring of said relay.

 

original thread:

 

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8263&highlight=starterrelay

 

 

Edited September 17, 2010 by johnceggleston

[Manarius]

I don't quite know how close the SVX starters and Legacy starters are, but the SVX does have the same general problem which is solved by the installation of a relay.

 

You can see the writeup for it here: http://www.svx-iw.com/svxiw/article/?article=196

[ncwillus]

Ok thanks GeneralDisorder. I will look around the site, i dont even know where to begin adding a relay to my car, or the cost. thanks!

[GeneralDisorder]

The cost is relatively small if you have some wireing tools (stripper, crimper, etc). A relay is about $10 or less and the wire/fuse holder/terminals/etc will probably run about $20 give or take. Even if you have to buy the tools you can still get this job done for $50 or less. It's an inexpensive repair in the scheme of things.

 

The instructions above in johnceggleston's post as well as the SVX write-up that Manarius linked to are both good - if you can't do this job yourself you can still find someone at a shop that can follow these excelent instructions. It's a simple wireing task that should take no more than 30 minutes. I wouldn't pay more than $100 to have this done so don't let someone tell you it's a nightmare and is going to cost a fortune.

 

I don't know where you are located, but if you post up your location and ask for help there may be someone in your area that can assist. If you are near Portland, OR I would be glad to take care of the whole thing for you for $50.

 

GD

[illanrob]

One should be able to check if the connection to the stater solenoid has enough voltage/current to allow the solenoid to close its contacts and power the srarter.

 

Disconnecting the 12V to the starter, (removing rubber boot covering connection, remove nut and lock washer, remove cable from bolt, cover cable with rubber boot remember it connect to the +12V battery), place a volt meter ($12) at the wire to the starter solenoid ( Look at the top of the starter: disconnect paddle connector to solenoid, scrape a bit of insulation from wire to paddle, reconnect connector to solenoid), attach meter to wire and battery negative terminal. The TEST: turn on ignition (car will not start, but you should hear the soleniod click to close its contacts, it is very loud), read the volt meter, should read close to the battery voltage of +13V or so, 9V is considered low and unreliable. Repeat turning the ignition key several times to see that volt reading repeats. Now you know your wiring from ignition to solenoid is good. Reconnect the 12V cable to the starter, tighten nut/washer, replace boot. Start the car. It may be hard to get a good reading in the meter if the car starts, if it does not start then you may see a similar reading as before (close to 13V at the solenoid wire). Remove meter from wire.

Edited September 20, 2010 by illanrob

[ncwillus]

Nah im way far off. NC for me. but im going to head to the auto store to pick one of these up. would Advance auto or autozone have this? or maybe radio-shack...i got the tools just not the part.

[ncwillus]

Ok got my relay today a 40amp....is the adequate? im going to look around the house for some wire and connectors, if not ill have to buy that to. Let me know on the amperage. I know having alot wont effect it, just having to little is the thing.

[porcupine73]

The relay sounds nice. I definitely wouldn't skimp on a quality relay for this job because if the relay fails closed for some reason or cold welds the contacts it's going to run the starter continuously.

 

If I have to do this job I'll probably use 12ga from the battery to the relay. 14ga is probably heavy enough but definitely wouldn't go less than 16ga myself.

 

If running any wires from the battery + terminal they should be fused as close to the battery terminal as possible. Not putting a fuse on the wire can be asking for trouble, since there is nothing to limit the current if there is a fault and it could start a fire then if there is a fault. (Apparantly the hefty + cable going from the battery to the starter is exempt though.)

[ncwillus]

What do you mean? i am looking at thet wiring write up and it doesnt show anything with fuses....now im skeptical haha.

[GeneralDisorder]

You should always include a fuse when you run anything off the positive battery terminal. It's just a fire-hazard precaution in case of a short.

 

GD

[ncwillus]

Ok cool. How would go about doing that? ive never mounted any electrical stuff on cars...how do i mount the fuse up to the relay?

[GeneralDisorder]

No need - just go get an "inline fuse holder" from the auto parts store - attach one end to the battery and the other to the wire running to the contact in the relay.

 

GD

[ncwillus]

Ok sweet thats what i thought thanks man been a big help. By the way what size fuse should i use? 20....30?

Edited September 30, 2010 by ncwillus

[GeneralDisorder]

Start with a 10 amp - if that blows then go higher.

 

GD

[ncwillus]

Not sure if i should post this somewhere else but do you guys know how i can disable my alarm system on my car?

[ncwillus]

Well installed my relay today...lets hope it goes well ill keep updated.

[987687]

I've been fighting with a GL starter for a while now. I think I've found the issue to be grounding being obstructed by rust through the case of the starter itself.

 

But a question that pertains to this thread and the relay addition. I haven't seen that come up, actually... but it makes sense to me. My question is this, when it's getting low voltage to the solenoid does the starter still CLICK, just not engage the contacts fully? Or does the starter make no noise at all because the voltage to the solenoid is low?

 

If my clicky doesn't go away I may very well do this mod.

[johnceggleston]

I've been fighting with a GL starter for a while now. I think I've found the issue to be grounding being obstructed by rust through the case of the starter itself.

 

But a question that pertains to this thread and the relay addition. I haven't seen that come up, actually... but it makes sense to me. My question is this, when it's getting low voltage to the solenoid does the starter still CLICK, just not engage the contacts fully? Or does the starter make no noise at all because the voltage to the solenoid is low?

 

If my clicky doesn't go away I may very well do this mod.

 

both i think.

 

most report a click, but i don't remember mine doing that.

 

the click assures that you don't have a cut wire or non-functioning ignition switch. the electricity is flowing, just not enough.

 

EDIT for taglines: starterrelay, starterrelayfix, starterfix

Edited October 29, 2010 by johnceggleston

[ncwillus]

I've been fighting with a GL starter for a while now. I think I've found the issue to be grounding being obstructed by rust through the case of the starter itself.

 

But a question that pertains to this thread and the relay addition. I haven't seen that come up, actually... but it makes sense to me. My question is this, when it's getting low voltage to the solenoid does the starter still CLICK, just not engage the contacts fully? Or does the starter make no noise at all because the voltage to the solenoid is low?

 

If my clicky doesn't go away I may very well do this mod.

 

right before i done this mod, yes mine would click but it would not turn over. the starter is good just not enough voltage, so in my experience i would do the mod. its cheap and effective, no problems yet.