Should I do HG's since my clutch needs replacement?

[211]

2000 OBW

 

Kay so last weekend my clutch started slipping in 4-5th gear while merging on the freeway (135k on OE clutch). I managed to get to work and back home but I'm reluctant to drive it anywhere else since at this point I'm likely to end up stranded.

I had a local shop quote me 825$ to replace the clutch. This included tranny fluid, rear main and flywheel resurface. 800 is a lot for me to spend but I really dont' have the time or the space to do this project myself at the moment.

 

But I want to share some scenarios and get some feedback from you all.

 

I'm 'convincing' myself I need to let the shop do it. Why? mostly to save time and just get GET IT DONE.

However, considering it's got 135k miles and has never had issues I'm wondering if I should do the work myself and at the same time replace the head gaskets? Again, no issues at this point; timing belt was replaced right on the 103k mark (of course bearings, tensioner, wp, etc).

I'm also a big fan of the "if it aint broke..."

 

See where my dilema is? if I do the work myself I'd still be spending quite a bit of $$, I'd be cracking into the heads which don't necessarily need to be done... yet. But also I'm creating a week + job for myself, not to mention the weather and space and ... ugh...

 

also if I do replace the HG's will I still need to have the heads resurfaced even though nothing leaked or overheated?

 

EDIT~ I should also add FWIW, last year I had an issue where the car was throwing CEL misfire codes, with the help of USMB members I did tons of troubleshooting trying to isolate the issue, including vacuum and compression tests. All were good. Great compression and good vacuum.

I ended up throwing in the towel and taking it in. The problem turned out to be a intermittent flakey fuel injector. They had to put it on the scope to find that one...

Edited September 27, 2010 by 211

[davebugs]

In my opinion if you'd do it now the heads won't need anything done. Just clean up the surfaces on the heads and the block. I'd do the crank/cam seals while I was at it (wasn't mentioned with the WP, idlers, etc).

 

Go OEM only. Even though it's metal I'd probably reseal the baffle plate.

 

I'd even put fresh plugs in it while it's out. CHeck the VC gaskets, etc.

[211]

In my opinion if you'd do it now the heads won't need anything done. Just clean up the surfaces on the heads and the block. I'd do the crank/cam seals while I was at it (wasn't mentioned with the WP, idlers, etc).

 

Go OEM only. Even though it's metal I'd probably reseal the baffle plate.

 

I'd even put fresh plugs in it while it's out. CHeck the VC gaskets, etc.

 

I'm leaning toward doing the HGs then if no machining is necessary.

Do you recommend replacing the head bolts with new ones?

 

Crank/cam seals were not done when the timing belt was done.

 

What's the baffle plate? My local mechanic quoted me a PCV cover and hardware. Are we talking about the same thing? I've also heard it being referred to as the oil pump cover or something?

[markjw]

Do you recommend replacing the head bolts with new ones?

 

No.Just wire wheel the old ones nice and clean,chase the threads in the block and dip the bolts in fresh motor oil before you install them.

 

I personally wouldn't do the head gaskets until they needed it. Only because they are expensive and don't seem prone to failure as other subi motors are.

[GeneralDisorder]

I would be tempted to do the head gaskets as well if you know for a fact they have never been done. When was the timing belt done? Should have been around 100k to 110k typically (called out at 105k on the maintenance schedule).

 

Over $800 for a clutch swap is silly. It's about a 4 hour job.... how much are they charging per hour? Even at $100 per hour the parts are not over $400..... I don't get where they come up with this price unless you are taking it to the dealer?

 

Personally I charge 4 to 5 hours labor plus parts and the clutch kit is around $200. All said and done it's not usually over $400 for a clutch job when I do them for people.

 

The fact that they want to change your rear main is a red flag..... they obviously aren't familair with Subaru's because it's common practice to not touch the rear main if it's not leaking because they have a bad tendancy to leak shortly after being replaced. It's rare for them to leak anyway.

 

GD

[idosubaru]

do not replace Subaru head bolts. it's not a matter of opinion, but type of bolt.

 

your year had the Subaru extended head gasket warranty campaign to 100,000 miles, 2000-2002 depending on VIN. so it could have been replaced under warranty already...i mean it still could be replaced even if it wasn't under warranty. maybe you could look for signs of a prior replacement if you bought it used? or check with a dealer and have them run the VIN number? when i got my 2002 OBW i called the dealer and they told me all the services that were done to it.

 

don't *need* to have the heads milled but it's a good idea. you get the best seating of the new headgasket with a milled and clean surface. but i've skipped this before too depending on the situation/vehicle. Subaru doesn't even mill them all even on leaking headgaskets. you'll likely be taking the flywheel into a machine shop anyway so it's not much more "work" in those regards.

 

you'd be getting a whole lot more for your money to do them both yourself. so maybe pay for it if you decide just on the clutch but do it yourself if you decide to do both. with the engine already out the headgaskets really aren't all that bad to do.

 

maybe you can ask the shop doing the clutch to "let you have the engine" for a couple days and slap those headgaskets on there?

 

definitely install new spark plugs while it's out no matter what you decide.

[davebugs]

Yes - no rear main.

 

I'd reseal the baffle plate.

 

No new head bolts. Lube them well, but several will still creak a good bit.

 

Look at the HG procedure. I'd say they aren't expensive. IIR like 80 bucks for OEM? But you'll need a decent torque wrench, usually a 12 point socket for the head bolts, etc. The torque procedure is a bit of a "mexican hat dance" with many steps. First with specific torque's then with portions of a turn in specific orders.

 

We're assuming that the HG's have never been done and that you're likely to keep the car a while. I know folsk who will never reuse a timing belt after it's been in service.

[211]

Thanks for the feedback guys!

 

GG, I'm 99.8% sure the head gaskets have not been replaced. I bought the car from the second owner when it had 67k miles. He had all the service records and did everything through the dealer. His last service record was for the 60k maintenance interval. Breaks and all fluids were replaced at that time.

 

GD, The timing belt was replaced by me at 103k.

 

 

Okay, so..

• do not replace the main seal unless it needs it
  
• do re-use the old head bolt if I decide to do the heads.
  

I know I'm tempting Murphy's law here but I think I will take my chances and forego the head gaskets at this time. Based on the quote from the shop and the relative ease of replacement, I think I will to the clutch myself and save some coin.

I'm in a bit of a financial pinch because I JUST installed new flooring in my house and I'm tapped!

 

The nice thing about doing the clutch myself is I will have experience pulling the engine once it does come down to the HG's...

 

Also, I'm looking at clutchcityonline.com and it appears the clutch kits (p/n: 15-021) don't go back farther than 2001.

Is it safe to assume the 2000 would be the same? Part numbers are the same for 2001-2005

Edited September 27, 2010 by 211

[idosubaru]

yep, sounds like you got it and a good plan.

 

be sure to replace all of the clutch components, clips, throw out bearings, pilot bearing, etc.

 

and i'm sure you're aware that Subaru requires a special coolant additive for this engine, maybe you should dump in two bottles!

 

[*]do not replace the main seal unless it needs it

[*]

 

rear main, but i think that's what you meant. replacing the front main is fine, the rear main is typical to leave it because they very rarely leak.

[211]

Okay, I'm doing this myself then.

Exedy clutch from Clutchcity=195 free shipping

That's way better than the 300 the shop quoted me (no it's not the dealer

 

yep, sounds like you got it and a good plan.

 

be sure to replace all of the clutch components, clips, throw out bearings, pilot bearing, etc. What clips? are these for the throwout bearing?

 

and i'm sure you're aware that Subaru requires a special coolant additive for this engine, maybe you should dump in two bottles! Seriously??? I added conditioner when I replaced the timing belt so yes, I'm very aware of the subaru slime. But if you recommend 2 I will; it's the only thing at the dealer that is under 10$

 

 

 

rear main, but i think that's what you meant. replacing the front main is fine, the rear main is typical to leave it because they very rarely leak.

yes, I meant rear main; thanks for looking out

[davebugs]

I'd still reseal the baffle plate while I had access, even if you're skipping all the other engine stuff. Just takes basic tools (impact screw driver), cleaner, and ultra-grey. Yea the new ones are metal and rarely leak. But it's still buried and you'll literally be right there.

 

GG and I were typing at the same time a few posts back. But essentially the same comments.

[idosubaru]

maybe you should dump in two bottles! Seriously???

NO! sorry, i was just kidding. i'd just stick with one that Subaru recommends, I'm sure they settled on that amount for good reason.

 

good luck!

[GeneralDisorder]

I talked with the parts guy at my dealership (he's been there for over 20 years) and he said it's up to the discretion of the mechanic as to if the car needs one or two bottles.

 

I'm sure one is probably fine if it's not leaking yet. My Forester with 240k on it..... I replaced the radiator and didn't add the stop-leak. WOW!!! I've never seen a head gasket pour coolant on the ground like that one did. It was all over the exhaust and you could smell it wherever you parked the car. It would run low in a matter of just a few days of around town driving. I put in two bottles on my parts guy's reccomendation (I was about to buy the head gaskets for it ) and it stopped immediately and hasn't come back nor have I added a drop of coolant. That was over a year ago.

 

I'm sold on that stuff. Yes it's a repair in a bottle which I don't normally condone..... but it's dealer approved and it actually works. Even if it's a temp fix it got the car off my to-do list for over a year now. Totally worth the $1.50 a bottle IMO. When/if the leak comes back I'll deal with it - but with how well the stuff worked in my case the engine might be too high on the mileage end of things to bother repairing by the time the problem returns. Which would be fine by me......

 

GD