Turbo Question

[NV Zeno]

1992 Legacy Turbo, Under 100,000 miles.

 

This is my 80-something neighbor's car.

 

When arriving home, she smells a "burnt oil" smell coming from the engine bay. I have smelled this. Not being familiar with turbo engines, I did a quick "look-see" to verify that there were no major leaks or any components that have came loose or disconnected.

 

She took it to a local "general practice" repair place, and she was told the turbo needs replacing. Of course, they needed to order the part, and that cost around $1000. She was also told the labor to replace would be minimal compared to the parts.

 

I suggested she take her car to another shop for a second opinion, as this is a quite costly repair, and at the least to obtain a second opinion.

 

She doesn't drive very hard or far, mostly to the store, doctor and church, all in the same small town. I doubt if she drives in such a way that the turbo is activated..I've ridden with her, and she drives like your typical "granny".

 

Opinions? Comments? Questions?

 

Thanks.

[Turbone]

It could be something as simple as a valve cover gasket leaking. Not much chance of a turbo going out at that mileage. Sounds like the shop is trying to take advantage of a little old lady :-\

Theres no dedicated Subaru shop around?

[Allpar Mod]

I'd agree that a second opinion from someone with a good rep is in order. Generally, smelling burning oil is an external leak issue and even though you didn't see something, doesn't mean that it isn't small a leak enough that it burns off before leaving too much visible residue to be that noticeable.

 

Personally, I had a '90 Loyale Turbo several years ago, low mileage also. The parts are expensive enough to discourage me from owning another. I had an issue with the exhaust components (for real) and I had to take it to a Subaru dealer for service because nobody else I trusted would work on a turbo. The bill knocked me off of my feet. My oldest son has a '97 Jetta turbo and has had issues with his. After getting estimates after he found someone that would work on them, he is never going to buy another also.

[porcupine73]

If an axle boot ripped and spewed grease onto the exhaust, that will make you smell a nasty burning odor for a long time. Usually it's the right inner, that's right above the exhaust.

[GeneralDisorder]

If the turbo had actually failed it would be belching blue smoke out the exhaust - is that the case? They do not leak externally......

 

GD

[wtdash]

The oil line to the turbo or the return line (a rubber-type hose) to the head could possibly develop a leak but neither requires replacing the turbo.

 

Much more likely it's just a cam seal or similar.

 

Has the T-belt been done? If not, that's a good excuse to reseal the easy to-get-to stuff.

 

Side-jack:

Yes, turbo cars are higher maintence...but once you're boost addicted you don't much care. :-) (Not sure the Loyale or Jetta (turbo diesel?) are good examples of turbo's performance advantage - they're both kinda slow in NA form anyway.)

Edited September 28, 2010 by wtdash

[NV Zeno]

Ya know..come to think of it, I HAVE heard the familiar clacking a CVJ makes coming from her car when she makes the sharp turn entering/exiting her garage. Maybe I'll pay her a visit and have a look-see at her axle boots. One thing about that though..the smell is more like burnt motor oil, which is different than the CV grease smell I'm familiar with from my EA81 wagon (which was quite often).

 

To answer the comment about turbo operation: I doubt if she ever "gets into the turbo" very much, is there anything I could have her do to be sure the turbo is not operating properly (noise, smoke, lack of power (duh))? [Answered by GD above-thanks.]

 

I'll do a little more research, and also stay tuned here to see if there are any more suggestions.

 

Thanks guys.

[NV Zeno]

OK. Just got off the phone with Neighbor. She didn't take her car to another shop yet, but she WAS asking around. Turns out one of her freinds from her church owns an auto repair shop in Reno, 30~40 miles away. They spoke for a few minutes, and he told her to add a can (bottle?) of "Engine Oil Stop Leak" today, and he'll have a closer "eyeball" look at her car on Sunday.

 

I asked about the "big smoke" out the exhaust, and she said she hasn't noticed any.

Coolant temperature has not changed, runs normally.

No oil or coolant spots on her garage floor.

 

I guess she'll have more info, and maybe a diagnosis on Sunday.

 

--

 

Rob, there's a really good Subaru shop I like (Norm's), but he's over in South Lake Tahoe, 22 miles away. I don't think she's too interested in driving that far for a minor repair..we are optimistic.

[ShawnW]

Don't put stop leak stuff in that car. That engine block has oil squirters, a turbocharger, and a lot of other galleries that might not appreciate being clogged.

 

Limp it the 30-40 miles after making sure its completely full of oil.

[NV Zeno]

"Limp it the 30-40 miles after making sure its completely full of oil."

 

Actually, it runs fine..no overheating/hi-temp indicated, smooth idle and drives normally. No exhaust smoke.

 

I am not too keen on adding that stuff either, don't know why the guy told her to add it. I'm JAFO here.

 

IIRC someone above mentioned there might be a small oil leak that's dripping onto something hot in the engine room (or CVJ grease) causing the smell. I too am hesitant to have her add the stop leak stuff, but I'm trying to be respectful of her freind. I figure the worst that can happen there is that the additive will be in her engine for a short time. The oil should get changed when the repair is done.

Edited September 29, 2010 by NV Zeno
Add'l comments

[wtdash]

 

With under 100K that engine is still in great condition, if maintained. The 'stop leak' stuff is for hi-milers, is it not?

 

I would express your opinion w/her, regardless of the other mech.

 

As stated above, the Turbos have more oil passages than a NA EJ22, and I wouldn't go messing around w/that.....@ best the stop leak is a band-aid anyway. At worst, she'll be buying a new engine (which you can't, by the way) or rebuilding that one.

 

EDIT: It actually bothers the crap out of me the friend suggests stop leak.

 

- SUBIES LEAK - fix what's leaking - don't cover it up.

 

My .02, FWIW.

 

Td

Edited September 29, 2010 by wtdash

[NV Zeno]

My feelings, almost exactly.

 

I just find it odd that a "professional" would even think of telling someone to use that (or just about any) additive. Still can't figure a reason to add that stuff if he's going to check her car in a few days anyway. My take is "as long as the oil level is in the operating range it'll be OK", leaks or not.

 

With under 100K that engine is still in great condition, if maintained. The 'stop leak' stuff is for hi-milers, is it not?

 

I would express your opinion w/her, regardless of the other mech.

 

As stated above, the Turbos have more oil passages than a NA EJ22, and I wouldn't go messing around w/that.....@ best the stop leak is a band-aid anyway. At worst, she'll be buying a new engine (which you can't, by the way) or rebuilding that one.

 

- SUBIES LEAK - fix what's leaking - don't cover it up.

 

My .02, FWIW.

 

Td

[Fairtax4me]

It's a Subaru, it leaks oil.

The stop leak stuff is usually just thick gooey oil... stuff. It helps increase surface tension which makes the oil less likely to work it's way through the small holes that are the source of leaks. I certainly wouldn't use it on a turbo engine for fear that it may impede oil flow to the turbo and cause damage to the bearings. (which would then mean she'd need a new turbo)

 

 

I'm quite familiar with bad turbos working at a Saab dealership. We see one at least once a month. They usually blow a greyish blue smoke screen so thick you can't see the car for the smoke. And it hangs around for a LONG time too. It can start out small in some cases. You might only see some slight smoke when coming off the throttle or sitting at idle. But that only lasts a few days to maybe 2 weeks at most depending on how the car is driven.

[GeneralDisorder]

As mentioned you risk massive damage to a turbo engine if you try some kind of stop leak additive. The passages inside the turbo are small, as are the piston oil squirters, etc. That stuff might treat those like a leak and just stop them from working. Possible severe damage could result.

 

She needs to find a turbo-charged friendly mechanic that knows this stuff.

 

GD

[NV Zeno]

OK. Just got back from looking at her car.

 

I checked for torn/leaking CV boots, all 4 are intact and dry.

 

Still no oil spots on the floor, ANY substance.

 

Motor oil level on dipstick reads "full", and the oil is a little darker than new but still somewhat "see-through".

 

I stopped by and talked to Norm, the "Grand Poobah" of Subaru mechs in Tahoe, and he (of course) agreed with all of us that adding the stop leak was a really bad idea.

 

I DID NOT add the stop leak stuff, and told her I compared it to giving bourbon to a small child or a baby.

 

If what I am seeing is what I think, there is what looks like a small catalytic converter on the front bottom of the engine (USA driver side) directly below the A/C compressor, seen from below..that has fresh-looking and still moist oil stuck to it. That would explain the burnt oil smell, eh?

 

I told her it was certainly NOT the turbo, I pointed out to her it's location, clear on the other side of the engine compartment.

 

My best guess is that it's probably a failed small gasket or seal nearby, but I'm sure there's plenty of EJ gurus here that know this engine WAY better than me (I'm an EA81 owner), and might even be able to figure out what the heck I'm talking about here .

 

Thanks

[Fairtax4me]

Shouldn't be any cats near the front of the engine. Heat shielding on the manifold pipes maybe? (not sure how the turbo exhausts are routed)

 

If it's left side (from inside the car) it's probably the cam spacer O ring or front cam seal. The cam seal would leak inside the timing belt cover, and would eventually start leaking out of the bottom of the cover. The O ring would drip down between the cover and head and straight onto the road if it weren't for the exhaust piping being in the way.

[NV Zeno]

*Update*

 

Saw Neighbor today. She told me she took her car to a highly recommended local shop that has a mech that knows old Subarus (I've talked to him myself a looong time ago about my carb, he knows Subarus..I actually forgot about him/that shop:rolleyes:).

 

(She told me) He put the car on a lift, and confirmed the small oil leak I pointed out yesterday. Estimate, $700.

 

This guy also told her she needed a new turbo, $1000+.

 

Now, I know this is a '92, but it only has 91000 miles (I checked today). This 80-something year old lady is the original owner, and she is definitely NOT a hot-rodder on the road.

 

I guess my question is how did these guys determine that the turbo needs to be replaced? Is there a visual "telltale"? A certain sound?

 

She was told that she'll know that the turbo has completely failed by seeing lots of smoke out the exhaust. That is not happening now.

 

Now she's really worried about pouring money into an old car, and has started considering a new one. I'd hate to see her shell out $25000 for a new Legacy if her '92 is still good, just in need of a relatively minor repair(And it's in REALLY NICE condition, inside and out ).

 

I just wanna know what those guys are seeing...

Edited September 30, 2010 by NV Zeno
grammar

[Turbone]

Those "guys" are trying to get business in a bad economy :-\

But they dont care about some old ladies bank account

 

The leak is probably coming from the crank seal and leaking onto the up-pipe, which runs right under the front of the engine.

For the cost of the seal and labor, it should cost less than $100 to fix this.

Sure wish she was closer, I would probably do it for free.

[NV Zeno]

And that's EXACTLY what my gut is telling me.

 

She's pretty much decided to have the leak fixed, and "wait and see" with the turbo.

 

Thanks Rob.

 

Those "guys" are trying to get business in a bad economy :-\

But they dont care about some old ladies bank account

 

The leak is probably coming from the crank seal and leaking onto the up-pipe, which runs right under the front of the engine.

For the cost of the seal and labor, it should cost less than $100 to fix this.

Sure wish she was closer, I would probably do it for free.

[suby160]

I just blew my second VF40 on my 06' LGT. There really isn't a telltale sign per say, when mine blew both times I was at full boost. There was a very high pitched whine probably from overspin, then the sound of metal, since the exhaust turbine broke. This turbo is known for problems due to screens that Subaru knew they should have removed, but if it hasn't actually detonated. Then it could be turbo slobber, the seals could be ready to go. If you can take a look in the air intake and inspect for any oil trails. Some oil residue is normal, but if it looks out of the ordinary it probably is going. Run you fingers in there, if its heavy. The turbo needs replacing. :-\

Edited October 2, 2010 by suby160

[Turbone]

I just blew my second VF40 on my 06' LGT. There really isn't a telltale sign per say, when mine blew both times I was at full boost. There was a very high pitched whine probably from overspin, then the sound of metal, since the exhaust turbine broke. This turbo is known for problems due to screens that Subaru knew they should have removed, but if it hasn't actually detonated. Then it could be turbo slobber, the seals could be ready to go. If you can take a look in the air intake and inspect for any oil trails. Some oil residue is normal, but if it looks out of the ordinary it probably is going. Run you fingers in there, if its heavy. The turbo needs replacing. :-\

 

Couple of things here....

 

1. A 92' VF11 is nothing like a 06' VF40.

2. It sounds like you drive yours a tad more aggressively than a little old lady

[GeneralDisorder]

If two different mechanic's have said the turbo is going out then there might indeed be something to it.

 

Mostly you should check inside the intake piping from the turbo to the inlet. If there is lots of oil present here then that would indicate a possible turbo seal issue.

 

A good used VF11 goes for about $100 or less.

 

With some relatively simple modifications (inlet and outlet piping - no exhaust mods) a TD04 can be fitted in it's place and these are very common in the used market as they are often removed from WRX's to install something else. Again $100 or less will buy a good used unit.

 

I'm sure you know some board members in the area that can change out a turbo for a couple hundred right?

 

The seal replacement for $700 is also rediculous. That's a timing belt job with a cam seal replacement. Something that could again be accomplished by a board member in the area for well under $500 even if you replaced everything t-belt related.

 

If she wants to drive to Portland I'll do the work

 

GD

[SchwarzeEwigkt]

This is an EJ22T, right? Don't the rear cam seals on those things leak? They're just o-rings, right? Why not check those?

[GeneralDisorder]

This is an EJ22T, right? Don't the rear cam seals on those things leak? They're just o-rings, right? Why not check those?

 

There's only one "rear" cam o-ring on the passenger side. The heads use the same casting and the driver's side head is turned around and the cam o-ring is on the front along with the cam seal - either one could have failed.

 

GD