Is this a head gasket leak? Looks like oil. Pics Inside (UPDATED)

[211]

Edit:

I have updated/better photos on page 2

2000 OBW 2.5l SOHC manual 136k

 

I'm in the process of removing the engine to replace the clutch. While I was underneath I noticed a blackish ooze between the engine block and the heads on both sides. It feels like oil not coolant but it's right where the head gasket seats.

Have a look and tell me what you think?

 

 

Drivers' Side:

 

Pass Side:

 

I was hoping to avoid turning this into a head gasket job but I guess now would be the time since the engine is out..

Edited October 7, 2010 by 211

[86subaru]

one thing is the fram filter,

[rpholz]

the Phase II Ej25 had external oil leak issues, Subaru now sells a MLS headgasket that is a better design, change them, it's already out

 

 

 

and buy a real oil filter while your at it!!

[GeneralDisorder]

They are known for leaking oil and coolant but that doesn't always mean it's time to change them The oil leaks are usually very minor.

 

GD

[211]

It's hard to tell what 'minor' is. I can get more pics once the engine is out.

I did not want to turn this into a head job because I do not have the funds; 135k miles, can I push 200k looking like this you think?

[GeneralDisorder]

With the Subaru coolant additive I would bet you have more miles left in them. 200k? Maybe..... speculation.

 

Minor is any leak that doesn't form a puddle on the ground overnight.

 

If the leak can be managed - IE: you can drive for days or weeks at a time without having to top off the fluid(s) - then the leak is minor.

 

GD

[johnceggleston]

It's hard to tell what 'minor' is. I can get more pics once the engine is out.

I did not want to turn this into a head job because I do not have the funds; 135k miles, can I push 200k looking like this you think?

 

there are lots of places that these engines leak oil, head gaskets is not a usual one. it could be from spilling oil during an oil change, or the o-ring on the fill spout, or the cam shaft seals, valve covers, crank seal or oil pump o-ring....

 

what engine? history?

 

is it time for a timing belt?

 

with the engine out i'd do any and all leaking seals on the front of the engine and the oil separator plate on the rear as a minimum. plus as much as you can afford in timing belt components especially idlers that sound funny. but not the head gaskets unless they are bad.

 

what engine?

 

are you doing the work yourself?

Edited October 3, 2010 by johnceggleston

[211]

See comments below in the quote.

 

there are lots of places that these engines leak oil, head gaskets is not a usual one. it could be from spilling oil during an oil change, or the o-ring on the fill spout, or the cam shaft seals, valve covers, crank seal or oil pump o-ring....

 

what engine? history? 2000 OBW EJ25 SOHC 135k. Well maintained. Mostly highway miles (dont know if that's good or bad) I drive 60 miles round trip to work mon-fri every other week.

 

is it time for a timing belt? Belt and pulleys were replaced at 103k by me and new coolant and additive was added.

with the engine out i'd do any and all leaking seals on the front of the engine and the oil separator plate on the rear as a minimum. plus as much as you can afford in timing belt components especially idlers that sound funny. but not the head gaskets unless they are bad.

 

what engine? See above

 

are you doing the work yourself? Yes, and time and money are issues. I wasn't expecting to do the heads although common sense tells me since the engine is out...

 

I'd like to be able to budget for the head repairs for the semi-near future.

Hoping to eek another 50k out of her before then. I'll pull the engine sometime this week and take better photos, for now the leaking doesn't appear too severe.

I guess my main question is if these leaks are catastrophic or just slowly get worse. In other words, will head gaskets that leak oil suddenly pop, overheat and mix oil and coolant leaving me stranded?

[GeneralDisorder]

In other words, will head gaskets that leak oil suddenly pop, overheat and mix oil and coolant leaving me stranded?

 

Not on that engine. Typically they weep oil and coolant. The oil doesn't usually get much worse than what you are seeing now. The coolant is another story but if you run the Subaru additive it should take care of most of it. That model engine will not mix coolant and oil and will not overheat unless you let it run low on coolant.

 

GD

[davebugs]

You have a real delimma.

 

Personally any time I have the engine out I do the HG's. OEM HG's are under 100 bucks. Throw in other seals, belts, etc it can add up.

 

I'd atleast do the HG's and a new timing belt. Assuming you have a decent torque wrench to torque the heads and the cam caps. I'd probably install new VC gaskets while it was out along with resealing the baffle plate.

 

I go on the premise that if i do the HG's idelrs, WP, baffle plate, etc that it won't need pulled for atleast another 100k.

 

If you're mentally trying to get just another 50k the Subaru "Conditioner" MAY get you there.

 

The good news (if there is any) is what's been stated. The SOHC 2.5's leak externally. Which means you can see the leak on the driveway and keep adding fluid for a long time potentially. It WON'T suddenly spike after a 30-45 minute drive like a DOHC 2.5.

[idosubaru]

i've seen them get really bad but they don't "blow" and leave you stranded. the really bad ones i've seen all had 200,000+ miles on them. one guy i know has been driving his for a long time - he was at 280,000 last i saw it and it's leaking a lot of oil but he's still driving it. the smoking at a stop is what's bothering him due to the oil dripping onto the exhaust.

 

so the good news is you're not going to get stranded. just check the oil level.

 

i'd lean heavily on doing them now, but that's easy for me to type. either way you should be fine to 200,000 is my guess. if you wait to 200,000 you can just do your next timing belt change then too. save up for a timing kit - all pulleys and belt.

[211]

... either way you should be fine to 200,000 is my guess. if you wait to 200,000 you can just do your next timing belt change then too. save up for a timing kit - all pulleys and belt.

 

Thats good advice.

I feel comfortable leaving the heads alone for now knowing I wont' get stranded.

I just know, in order to do the HG's properly I'll be spending more money than I can afford right now.

 

Murphey's Law told me last week, "Go ahead and spend $2,000 on new flooring for your living room, I'll be sure something breaks on your car."

Sure enough...

Cant even finish the trim on my flooring; that went into a new clutch kit

 

Oh and one more question. Now that I almost burst into flames because of my choice in oil filters, what does everyone recommend? Subaru OE; seriously???

I usually buy Bosch filters. This is the first Fram I've bought since owning a GMC Yukon.

[GeneralDisorder]

I generally use WIX filters or OEM depending on application. For your application I would go with a WIX filter.

 

BTW - don't change that engine to synthetic or anything - you'll just make the oil leaks on the heads worse.

 

FWIW, I have a '99 Forester (same engine as your OBW) with 240k on it. It does weep a little oil (basically looks like your's there) and was leaking a TON of coolant. The Subaru stop leak (two bottles as reccomended by my Subaru parts guy) fixed it completely and it hasn't lost a drop in the last 6 months.

 

GD

[idosubaru]

Years ago I recall folks talking about "retorquing" or tightening EA82/ER27 heads and cam towers to snug up the bolts and slow down external leaks. I was never bold enough to try it, seemed like a bad idea. You ready to try it? :lol: That's a joke.

 

I use anything but Fram or a relabeled fram.

Usually Purolator Pure One or WIX, but I'm not that concerned.

 

While I'm not a fan, one fram isn't going to blow your engine up, i've installed one before for various reasons. The local auto parts store here had a display case with a Fram cut in half showing the lower quality build and cardboard (which fram says is a good material choice) compared to a Purolator.

[211]

Kay so I've got the engine out and have had a chance to take a closer look at the leaking HG.

I'd still like some feedback on whether or not this is bad enough (or not) to warrant an immediate repair.

 

Again, I went in to do a clutch-only (136k miles 2.5 sohc) if I can get away with not doing these till the next timing belt that would be awesome. Otherwise I'll save up and do it closer to 200k and just do the belt then.

Or... should I worry and do them now.

 

Obviously in a perfect world I would do them now. But I'm not budgeted for this and I nee my car back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also how does this rear main look? I have not cleaned anything off so most of what you see is clutch disc dust on top of oil, but is this considered 'leaking'?

Edited October 7, 2010 by 211

[StructEngineer]

My 2002 looked twice as bad as that when I had my HG's replaced. On mine, it started with that seeping sludge and then developed into a faster and faster coolant loss even with the conditioner.

 

If you have no trouble removing the engine again in the future and are on a budget now I would just roll with it as is.

[GeneralDisorder]

Yeah - I wouldn't worry about them. It looks worse than it really is. Clean it off with brake clean and monitor it.

 

Rear main looks good. I see no reason to change that.

 

GD

[ShawnW]

I agree with all above saying it can wait but I would add a routine to your life that you might not currently have. Check the oil between oil changes.

Everybody says they do it but really how many people really do?

[davebugs]

If you're wiling to remove the engine twice that doesn't look that bad - the HG's or rear main. I never replace the rear main.

 

I always use anit-seize on everything anyways.

 

Next removal will be easier since it'll have alreadey been remoed recently, the anti-seize and probably new hose clamps all the way around.

 

That said for the 100 bucks or so in parts personally I'd still be doing them while it's already out. ALong with resealing the baffle plate.