Best EJ block to build??

[True2Blue]

ive read the ej22 franken motor stuff, ive also seen the wrx 2.0 swaps

 

now if YOU (the reader) were to swap an EJ engine into your subaru what would it be? if you dont have an opinion then use this:

 

1987 4" lifted GL wagon you choose engine and transmission

 

what i would like to do to the 1987 lifted gl:

 

obtain "high performance" 2.2 engine

a 4.11 modded d/r

 

if you were to piece together your engine what crank, crank bearings, rod bearing, rods, pistons, rings, valves, valve springs, cams, ecu? would you

 

 

GD what "franken motor" would you build for "fun"

 

(i hate saying motor cause motors are ELECTRIC grandpa use to get on my case about that engine=fuel motor=electricity)

[GeneralDisorder]

The nomenclature deal is troubling - how do you explain an "Outboard motor" for a boat? The term "motor boat", etc. Truth is they are entirely interchangeable and the whole argument is basically superfluous. Everyone knows what you are talking about based on the usage.

 

If I were building for a lifted rig - EJ25 shorty, EJ22 roller rocker heads (single port exhaust), and Delta RV Torque cams. Using the EJ22's manifold from a 92 to 94 Legacy as well as the 90 to 94 EJ22 timing belt and tensioner setup.

 

The torque is amazing due to the high compression and cams, and no turbo lag - easy to adjust valve clearances, etc. Best combo I've seen yet.

 

GD

[True2Blue]

stock internals?

 

2.5 shorty + 1992-94 legacy 2.2 sp heads + manifold (intake?) + timing belt setup...

 

harness and ecu would be from a 2.5 correct?

 

if so i would love to use a 2.5 dash

 

(to me it would be way easier to 'retrofit' into a 87 wagon then correctly modding the harness)

[GeneralDisorder]

I would use the '96 to '98 EJ22 heads (roller rocker/single port) because I like the manual adjust rockers and the rollers, as well as the single port exhaust header/J-pipe fits better into an EA.

 

Harness and ECU need to match the manifold - 90 to 94 EJ22 is the simplest and easiest to use for this.

 

GD

[True2Blue]

I like the manual adjust rockers and the rollers

GD

 

why is that? "custom tune" for a rig that has hard to get to head it seems kinda like an inconvenience

Edited October 4, 2010 by True2Blue

[bheinen74]

22t

[Fairtax4me]

why is that? "custom tune" for a rig that has hard to get to head it seems kinda like an inconvenience

 

Might have something to do with the topic discussed in this thread: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=116101

[GeneralDisorder]

Might have something to do with the topic discussed in this thread: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=116101

 

Well - no. Stricktly speaking my choice of the manual adjust valves actually opens the possibility of that occuring where it's virtually impossible on a hydro lifter head.

 

But the roller rockers are really nice.... not sure if they would bolt up to the first gen heads. The roller rockers provide just a hint of more power along with the manual valves which don't drag against the cam. So there's slightly more power potential with them. Plus they are newer and the single-port exhaust header has less going on so should be easier to build custom stuff for, etc..... there's many reasons.

 

GD

[Gloyale]

But the roller rockers are really nice.... not sure if they would bolt up to the first gen heads. The roller rockers provide just a hint of more power along with the manual valves which don't drag against the cam. So there's slightly more power potential with them. Plus they are newer and the single-port exhaust header has less going on so should be easier to build custom stuff for, etc..... there's many reasons.

 

GD

 

The rollers will bolt onto earlier heads (all the IMP 1.8s had them)

 

I agree with your combo with one difference, I would use the 96-98 OBD II engine managment. (95 would also work but is a "one year only" ECU pin arrangemnet)

 

The OBD II harness is all one, (instead of the weird SMJ, two part harness) and if you keep the OBD II connector you can use a standard scanner on it for easy diagnosis.

 

Plus I think the Fuel maps and overall power potential is higher.

 

So here's my combo

 

Phase I or Phase II 2.5 shortblock

 

95-98 single port EJ22 heads

 

any 90-98 EJ22 manifold

 

96-98 ECU and wiring harness

[GeneralDisorder]

The OBD II harness is all one, (instead of the weird SMJ, two part harness) and if you keep the OBD II connector you can use a standard scanner on it for easy diagnosis.

 

Plus I think the Fuel maps and overall power potential is higher.

 

That's a good point. I think either one will work fine.... just something about the secondary O2 sensor stuff rubs me the wrong way. I don't like extraneous sensors on my wheeling rig.... I guess in the scheme of things it's minor. I haven't done an OBD-II swap yet but I do see the attractiveness of the OBD-II port.

 

I like the OBD-I port's ability to interface with an old laptop with just the free utility that the guy over on LegacyCentral built. It's neat to be able to read sensor output's, etc in real time with inexpensive hardware. The right scanner can do it on the OBD-II stuff too but it's not quite as targeted and definitely not as cheap.

 

GD

[True2Blue]

i searched ebay and CL i could not find the SP heads or 2.2 heads for that matter. i found a short block for $1800 (new) in not looking to go to a JY for the major stuff (block and heads) i know ill spend more dipping and rebuilding them than buying them new with a warranty

 

depending on how tonight goes with the boss (im going to suggest we do an hour change) i might be working at the subaru dealership.. my buddy works there so i got a foot in the door. (i know they have all ill need)

 

untill then anyone know where to buy "new" or reman 1.8/2.2 single port heads and phase II 2.5 block?

[GeneralDisorder]

i searched ebay and CL i could not find the SP heads or 2.2 heads for that matter. i found a short block for $1800 (new) in not looking to go to a JY for the major stuff (block and heads) i know ill spend more dipping and rebuilding them than buying them new with a warranty

 

Unlikely - cost for full head rebuild is only about $80 per. Junkyard+rebuild is the way to go IMO since these heads never really "fail". Maybe burn a valve, etc - but that's only about $15 for a new valve. New or reman is likely going to be more expensive.

 

A good used block isn't too hard to find since the Phase-I 2.5's often wreck their heads durring a timing belt break, or can be had with blown head gaskets for cheap.

 

GD

Edited October 4, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[True2Blue]

Unlikely - cost for full head rebuild is only about $80 per. Junkyard+rebuild is the way to go IMO.

 

GD

 

for all machine work and internals? seems a little low but ill go for that.

[GeneralDisorder]

Hot tank, resurface, valve grind, and stem seals runs me $80 per head. If a valve needs replaced due to being burnt, etc it's about $15 per burned valve. Usually $160 for a "normal" set of heads or about $180 to $190 for a burned valve set.

 

GD

[thatswhatshesaid]

GD - could you estimate what kind of power levels that hybrid combo would put out? Has anyone dyno'ed that build (or a similar one)?

 

and what kind of comp ratio would that produce?

[GeneralDisorder]

The estimates are based on various builds and people's dyno runs, etc over on NASIOC. This would be my guess:

 

HP: ~180

Torque: ~200 (with the delta cams)

 

Comp. Ratio is somewhere between 10.5:1 and 11.5:1 - depending on which gasket you use and what head/block combo.

 

All I know for sure is that it's a kick-in-the-pants to drive. It's got more power/torque than a stock 2.5 DOHC/SOHC and fits in the engine bay of the EA's much better as well.

 

GD

[SubiDemon]

Can I convert my early 2.2 HLA heads to solid lifter? I have 2 early 2.2 motors to build with my 2.5 short block and would rather not buy more heads if I don't have to.

[Numbchux]

"Best" is obviously an EXTREMELY vague term. there are thousands of combinations of use/desire/budget. So really this thread won't be the be-all and end-all of EJ build threads.

 

 

BUT....

 

This is something we've been looking at for RallyAmerica #171. Since we are looking at running Nationals next year, and being somewhat competitive in Open Class. But, being a privateer teem, we need the engine to last the full season.

 

 

the 22t is VERY overrated. I was there a couple weeks ago when Graham "Whiskers" Evans (for those that don't know, Whiskers worked at Prodrive, and was Richard Burns's Crew Chief) got his first look at a 22t block up close. First thing he said (as I have always suspected) is that the cooling passages are all full of aluminum.

 

But, the main thing (as is the problem with all phase I blocks) is the size of the bearing journals. the Phase II setup is noticeably more beefy. And the #3 thrust bearing position is.....well....not ideal. Yes, it's possible to do a little machine work and use a Phase II crank, but then your crank journals are even smaller.

 

Seriously, as far as shortblocks go, you need a LOT of power to need the cylinder wall strength of a fully-close deck over semi-closed like an EJ207/257/255 and some 20Gs. And once you're at that point, you will need more support at the crank bearings, and better cooling, so you'd still be better off sleeving a Phase II block.

 

 

 

That said, we've decided to stick with our high-compression (10.5:1) EJ257 for next year....Although with the addition of a GEMS ECU for anti-lag and a VF36 twin-scroll turbo.

 

 

 

 

For a best bang v. buck N/A 4-cyl build. GDs right on the money. the HLA heads soak up too much valve movement to be good for performance. they're kind of like having a sponge in the linkage.....solid is much better, although requires a bit more maintenance.

 

If it had to be stock, I would definitely go OBD II for the ECU. much smarter and quicker than the old OBD I units. But to make the most of the higher compression, I'd spring for a standalone.

 

 

 

But, that's really irrelevant. because if I were building another frankensubaru. it would/will, without a doubt, have an EZ30 in it. probably a 30D. The EZ30DR is a great motor, but would require a new Hydra or Link standalone. which would add a massive investement to the project. and a stock EZ30D is going to get better power (and probably similar mileage) on 87 octane and stock ECU than the high-compression 2.5 hybrid will. and since it's not a hybrid, it'll be more reliable too.

 

I think the EZ30D is the most underrated Subaru motor available right now.

[renob123]

ive read the ej22 franken motor stuff, ive also seen the wrx 2.0 swaps

 

now if YOU (the reader) were to swap an EJ engine into your subaru what would it be? if you dont have an opinion then use this:

 

1987 4" lifted GL wagon you choose engine and transmission

 

what i would like to do to the 1987 lifted gl:

 

obtain "high performance" 2.2 engine

a 4.11 modded d/r

 

if you were to piece together your engine what crank, crank bearings, rod bearing, rods, pistons, rings, valves, valve springs, cams, ecu? would you

 

 

GD what "franken motor" would you build for "fun"

 

(i hate saying motor cause motors are ELECTRIC grandpa use to get on my case about that engine=fuel motor=electricity)

 

Does your idea of "best" factor in money at all? If so, how?

 

Jacob

 

P.S. I'll use "motor", "transmission" and "swaybar" however I want until I die, no matter how much nitpicking goes on:banana:

[True2Blue]

Does your idea of "best" factor in money at all? If so, how?

 

Jacob

 

P.S. I'll use "motor", "transmission" and "swaybar" however I want until I die, no matter how much nitpicking goes on:banana:

 

Boner-

 

money is not an issue up to 4k

 

 

and please continue to use terms as you will. i now understand why aussies and brits call us stupid americans...

[True2Blue]

Numbchux

 

your pretty smart my friend.

 

thank you for your input that seriously helped and to be honest ive never looked into an EZ30D engine but im sure i wouldnt like it as much as the 4's because the subaru sound that rumble......

 

ill be doing lots o research on in now.. i applied at subaru today i hope i get the job

[Numbchux]

Numbchux

 

your pretty smart my friend.

 

thank you for your input that seriously helped and to be honest ive never looked into an EZ30D engine but im sure i wouldnt like it as much as the 4's because the subaru sound that rumble......

 

ill be doing lots o research on in now.. i applied at subaru today i hope i get the job

 

the classic boxer-4 rumble is awesome. But a flat 6 is at least as sexy....

 

the single-exhaust-port heads on the EZ30D mean it doesn't sound quite as good as an EG33 or an EZ30/36DR, but....still pretty good.

 

 

There's no replacement for displacement. and the EZs are only 1.5" longer bellhousing-to-crank pulley than an EJ.

 

Going much more than stock is not cheap on an EZ, but stock is still pretty respectable (210hp/230tq at the crank for a 30D, IIRC. more like 250/250 for a 30DR).

 

 

btw, http://www.copart.com is a great source for donor cars

 

 

 

 

 

Forgot to mention my preference in components. in a case where aftermarket internals are needed.....Cosworth bearings, NPR rings, CP pistons, Eagle Rods (not ecstatic about these, great bang v. buck choice for pretty decent power, but if you're talking about more than 400 or so.....no), OEM phase II crank, undecided on Cams.

 

got a couple EJ builds (22t block with 205 heads hybrid. and our 257 rally car) that will be getting head work in the next year or so.....and cams are a big source of debate there.

[renob123]

Boner-

 

money is not an issue up to 4k

 

 

and please continue to use terms as you will. i now understand why aussies and brits call us stupid americans...

 

Hmm, I doubt I'm the reason they think that. Words change meaning over time. The word "hypocrite" used to mean "actor", for example. The word "plates" means "feet" in parts of London. Understanding how to use apostrophes and capital letters does not change with time, though, and I'd normally expect anyone over the age of 10 to have mastered those concepts.

 

Anyway, I think either an H6 or an EJ257 bottom, given your budget, unless you can get a really nice 2.0 from Japan. They're sticking with their 2.0 for a reason.

 

Jacob

[Gloyale]

Anyway, I think either an H6 or an EJ257 bottom, given your budget, unless you can get a really nice 2.0 from Japan. They're sticking with their 2.0 for a reason.

 

Jacob

 

I've got a JDM 2.0 block I'd love to part with if anyone wants it.

[True2Blue]

Hmm, I doubt I'm the reason they think that. Words change meaning over time. The word "hypocrite" used to mean "actor", for example. The word "plates" means "feet" in parts of London. Understanding how to use apostrophes and capital letters does not change with time, though, and I'd normally expect anyone over the age of 10 to have mastered those concepts.

My typing/"grammar" skills are not gone. The reason I don't use apostrophes and capitol letters "proper written grammar" is because i never cared to add them when you or anyone else can read what I have written just fine AND it slows me down. now if you were my teacher im sure I would make things right.

 

Anyway, I think either an H6 or an EJ257 bottom, given your budget, unless you can get a really nice 2.0 from Japan. They're sticking with their 2.0 for a reason.

 

im not tryin to be an rump roast towards you. IF you go on to someone's post and rattle of some s*it they probably wont care to read your going to get a response ESPECIALLY if its off the thread topic REGARDLESS of how i said i dont like calling an engine a motor because my grandfather was a true mechanic that tried to teach me the right way

 

he also taught me not to talk back but all that went out the window when i joined the great U.S. ARMY ( had to due with my squad leader telling me i need to perform better in pt when i have a high score and he can even run a full 2 miles. "lead the way leader")

 

Jacob

 

i like all subaru engine's but the 6's dont have that rumble. that distinct subaru sound is one reason i like subaru. i should be been more specific

 

the "experts" are all leaning towards the 2.5 sort block i was looking at a 2.0 setup .

 

since i havent messed with a 2.0 whats the gain/loss over a 2.5 sb?