03 consumer report engine problems

[mikec03]

I see that last years consumer reports auto report, which still included '03 models, shows that the engine had "much more" problems than normal. This is the worst ranking. I interpret this to mean head gasket problems. The head gaskets were changed early in the '02 production run for legacys but it appear that it didn't totally fix the problem.

 

I have an '02 made after the change, so I'm worried. Consumers reports doesn't report maintenance details unfortunately.

[GeneralDisorder]

If you are worried then pull the engine and replace the head gaskets.

 

GD

[OB99W]

I suggest you Google "Subaru Cooling System Conditioner", if you're not familiar with the product. Then, use it. If no leak occurs, there's nothing to worry about. If a leak develops after using the conditioner, talk to Subaru of America and see if they can help you.

[bheinen74]

subaru had headgasket prone failures in all after '96 ej25 engines. Subaru never ever fixed the problem, besides isssuing a Holtz brand coolant conditioner additive (leak stop that cruds up the heater core) which is not a true fix. If you have researched this, the ej22 is pretty much best engine you can get. Ej25 is the second worst engine subaru produced (after the ea82). Hopefully the 3rd gen boxer engine coming out in the 2011 forester has resolved the issues of the headgasket, and they hopefully looked into longevity of the motor versus power output, something the engineers did not do from 95+ after 95 the engineers must have been on craks and nothing more.

[mikec03]

To emphasize the point that I was trying to make, the "new" head gaskets installed early in the '02 Lagacy production run have proven to be not a total fix. The evidence is the consumer report data. Up to now, there was anecdotial reports, but nothing definitive. Now it's definitive.

 

I hope everyone realizes that the conditioner is not a fix and is changing the coolant religiously every 30K. As for changing the motor or head gasket preemtively, tell me how many failures there will be before 200k [10% 20% 30% etc], and I will be able to make a decision.

[GeneralDisorder]

Head gaskets aren't really that big of a deal - arrange alternate transportation, rent a cherry picker, borrow a garage, pull the engine, replace the head gaskets, and reinstall. Adjust your valves while it's out, etc. You are talking less than $500 if you do all the maintenance stuff (timing belt, water pump, idlers, cam/crank seals, etc), the head gaskets, and intake/exhaust gaskets.

 

GD

[OB99W]

I hope everyone realizes that the conditioner is not a fix and is changing the coolant religiously every 30K. As for changing the motor or head gasket preemtively, tell me how many failures there will be before 200k [10% 20% 30% etc], and I will be able to make a decision.

No, the "conditioner" isn't a fix, but it may extend the useful life of the HGs for a reasonable time. My point was that being "worried" serves little purpose. HG failures on the phase 2 engines don't tend to be catastrophic -- a small leak would likely be plugged by the conditioner, and if you begin to see any significant coolant (or oil) losses, then the gaskets should be replaced. Just don't ignore a leak and allow the engine to overheat.

[GeneralDisorder]

The conditioner works quite well actually. I have a Forester with 240k on it and two bottles of the conditioner stopped the leaks dead. It's not ideal that they leak in the first place but the conditioner really does work and helps prolong the life.

 

GD

[bheinen74]

the conditioner (holtz stop leak) is proven to keep headgaskets from weeping, but it clogs the heater cores up, making a cold winter vehicle in the midwest, upper north, winter cold areas. Once the heater core clogs with the fix, then you have to replace the core (if you want good heat), and that is not what i call a cheap job. It also is not good for the radiator efficiency, and I am appaled that subaru says this is the fix with all the side affects of its use.

 

Subaru "should" man up and pay for the headgasket replacements in all the cars with bad ej25 hg's to the updated style.

I am not a happy camper with this topic as of lately, and the consumer reports stuff (i would like a link to that article) is probably spot on and is there to warn people of the issue.

Edited October 11, 2010 by bheinen74

[OB99W]

the conditioner (holtz stop leak) is proven to keep headgaskets from weeping, but it clogs the heater cores up, making a cold winter vehicle in the midwest, upper north, winter cold areas. Once the heater core clogs with the fix, then you have to replace the core (if you want good heat), and that is not what i call a cheap job. It also is not good for the radiator efficiency, and I am appaled that subaru says this is the fix with all the side affects of its use.

The Holts product is designed to harden when coolant containing it hits air. It shouldn't clog the heater core, unless there's air in the cooling system. The problem is sometimes people use the Holts, but don't verify that the coolant is topped off and remains that way.

 

 

Subaru "should" man up and pay for the headgasket replacements in all the cars with bad ej25 hg's to the updated style.

I am not a happy camper with this topic as of lately, and the consumer reports stuff (i would like a link to that article) is probably spot on and is there to warn people of the issue.

Agreed -- I've always said that Subaru needed to "step up to the plate" on the HG issue, and any others where it's obvious that the problem is due to an original parts or design failure. Since they're not doing that, the conditioner is at least a partial option.

[StructEngineer]

Head gaskets aren't really that big of a deal - arrange alternate transportation, rent a cherry picker, borrow a garage, pull the engine, replace the head gaskets, and reinstall. Adjust your valves while it's out, etc. You are talking less than $500 if you do all the maintenance stuff (timing belt, water pump, idlers, cam/crank seals, etc), the head gaskets, and intake/exhaust gaskets.

 

GD

 

This only works when you already have the know how AND the time.

[GeneralDisorder]

If you don't have a weekend and can't ask for help from some board members then that's just admitting you are helpless IMO. If you truly can't spare a couple days to save $1000 then you must make a hell of a lot more than me.

 

This board can provide the know how. Time is just something you have to make.

 

GD

[StructEngineer]

Keep dreaming buddy. The whole world isn't made of 30 somethings with time to burn and who are willing to rip apart an interference engine.

[idosubaru]

the interference notion really doesn't add any complexity. you have to know or understand like one additional step, but that's a drop in the bucket.

Keep dreaming buddy. The whole world isn't made of 30 somethings with time to burn and who are willing to rip apart an interference engine.

GD doesn't see mechanics this way. most of the rest of us know what you're talking about, even those of us that do all our own work. it's just something we see differently.

 

i would guess there's one thing in this world that GD is not proficient at and should he endeavor to try it he would run into things that are hard but easy for others. folks that aren't mechanically inclined experience those same things here.

 

time is huge. some folks do a great job of focusing on work/career and then can enjoy the rest of the lives, not being consumed with saving or making a dollar at every turn. i've tried to be more like that recently because there's too many ways to make and save a buck and that's not what I value.

[GeneralDisorder]

time is huge. some folks do a great job of focusing on work/career and then can enjoy the rest of the lives, not being consumed with saving or making a dollar at every turn. i've tried to be more like that recently because there's too many ways to make and save a buck and that's not what I value.

 

I understand where you guys are comming from - I really do. I do work for people like this all the time.

 

This is a judgment call the OP has to make. I'm just offereing a different veiwpoint - one that is often ignored - that you CAN do a head gasket job and it's not that hard even for someone that hasn't done one before. Yes it's going to take a few more hours than an oil change - but it's completely doable with basic hand tools, a $20 torque wrench, and a rented cherry picker. All the hard stuff is done by the machine shop when you take the heads in..... all you have to do is dissasemble and reassemble.

 

I agree that often making/saving money should be secondary, but when it crosses that "I'm about to lose $1000 or more" line in the sand.... well I can think of much better ways to spend that $1000 than on some head gaskets.... . Obviously that's a moving target and $1000 is a large sum of money to me but probably not a lot to quite a few people..... then again we are on a Subaru forum talking about an 8 y/o car so..... I would wager that $1000 is a bunch to most of us.

 

Personally I also feel that a man should be master of his environment..... I actually get a lot of enjoyment out of doing most things for myself.

 

GD

Edited October 12, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[hankosolder2]

I agree with GD- some people find it fulfilling to have mastery over as many parts of their lives as possible whether it's home repair, car repair, etc. I've never taken a car to a mechanic for anything other than A/C service and alignments (both services require specialist tools which are cost prohibitive.) I've done engine swaps, clutches, transmissions, suspension work, head work, a complete body shell swap on an MG...

 

HOWEVER, as I get older, have family obligations, moved to an urban area w/o a garage, etc. I sometimes find myself CONSIDERING letting a mechanic do some of the work. What holds me back is wanting to know exactly what was done and knowing that it was done correctly. Unless you know a cool mechanic who will let you watch over his shoulder and who is receptive to your suggestions and you can spare the time to watch him work (which kind of negates the time savings aspect) you're never going to really have confidence in the work. Anecdotally, I once found a brake caliper bracket mounting bolt on my Dad's Mazda which had been stripped out by a mechanic. He then added a washer in an attempt to catch a different section of thread. It was one of the most dangerous repairs I've ever seen on an automobile.

 

I do think that GD is minimizing the difference in the skill set required to make the leap from oil changes to doing head gaskets. There certainly are a lot of threads on here about people screwing up trans oil pumps by not seating the torque converter properly, people who can't get the timing right on a DOHC timing belt swap, etc. Ultimately, people need to make their own decisions about how 'hands on' they want to be with their car and how confident they are that they can see a job through without causing more damage than a mechanic might!

 

Nathan

[GeneralDisorder]

I do think that GD is minimizing the difference in the skill set required to make the leap from oil changes to doing head gaskets.

 

Sometimes people just need to jump in and learn by making a mistake or two. A mistake or two will still likely not cost the $1000 difference if you are careful and observe at least the rule of turning the engine over a couple complete revolutions to be sure the timing isn't so off that there is internal interferance. Too often in our society people want to be insulated from making a mistake or hurting themselves. I see failure as an oppotunity for education. And if you eliminate failure then there's not much joy in success. And shops screw stuff up - I see it on every car I buy. Something I would have done better/different/etc where some idiot at a shop stuck his fat little fingers where they didn't belong.....

 

I have a recent aquaintence that completed a head gasket job on his '97 SUS (EJ25D) about 6 months ago (before he met me). He's an electrician by trade but had limited wrenching experience - mostly oil changes, etc. Hard times ensued with divorce, job loss, and near homelessness.... when the head gaskets blew the situation was such that he was either doing the job himself or walking because $1800 just didn't exist in his budget. He bought a Haynes manual and the neccesary parts and did the job in the parking lot of his apartment complex - no USMB, no advice from me or anyone else, and no roof either. And in the end - he is HAPPY that adversity showed him a better way. He is not scared to replace a wheel bearing or hit the junk yard in search of something anymore. It turned out very well and runs just fine. Though he knows that *next* time he's going to pull the engine because doing them with it in the car is a PITA

 

GD

Edited October 12, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[hankosolder2]

I have a recent aquaintence that completed a head gasket job on his '97 SUS (EJ25D) about 6 months ago (before he met me). He's an electrician by trade but had limited wrenching experience

<snip>

no USMB, no advice from me or anyone else, and no roof either.

 

GD

 

So, the $64K question.... did he use OEM gaskets, or was that what you were alluding to when you said "the next time he does this job...."

[GeneralDisorder]

He used Shuck's (Oreily's) gaskets . But apparently they were MLS - I asked him about them and he confirmed they were MLS..... so who knows - they might just be rebranded OEM. I'm not sure any of the members here are brave enough to buy a set just to see .

 

We'll see how they last. But a failure is a learning experience so no big deal. It got him along and now he got a decent job, a new woman, and a house with a garage. So even if they fail again he's still in a better place from doing them himself.

 

GD

Edited October 13, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[bheinen74]

He used Shuck's (Oreily's) gaskets . But apparently they were MLS - I asked him about them and he confirmed they were MLS..... so who knows - they might just be rebranded OEM. I'm not sure any of the members here are brave enough to buy a set just to see .

 

We'll see how they last. But a failure is a learning experience so no big deal. It got him along and now he got a decent job, a new woman, and a house with a garage. So even if they fail again he's still in a better place from doing them himself.

 

GD

 

oh boy, why even risk it, Subaru didn't evem get the ej25 gasket right ever to this day, so why risk a shicts.....?

i suppose the new oem subaru gasket might get to 180k, but who knows.

[GeneralDisorder]

i suppose the new oem subaru gasket might get to 180k, but who knows.

 

I have not had a problem with any of the 4-layer MLS gaskets. They are a turbo-style gasket and I think you would probably crack a head or melt something before you blew one.

 

GD