Overheating Issue

[Lawsonmh15]

This is definitely a rough one. Just spoke to SilverStar (Subie Specialists about a block from my house) and they were saying it would be $1950... Seems steep compared to the estimates I've seen on the board.

[Lawsonmh15]

Subaru's are famous for HG problems. Sometimes they overheat for the normal reasons. leaks. The last 3 cars brought to me for HG's, 2 were water pumps, seems like no one changes them at the first timing belt change. One was a hose at the throttle body. All were overheating which can cause the head gaskets to blow.

Just food for thought.

 

Is there an easy way to diagnose?

[Lawsonmh15]

Well, I just got a quote from Allstar Imports (apparently Subaru experts as well) and although they're a bit further away, they quoted $1000-$1500 and said they replace the water pump, belts, reseal oil pump, etc... I had never heard of them until today, and wondering if perhaps anyone here has dealt with them. I have recently undertaken some extra work which has me traveling upwards of 120 miles/day and really can't afford to take the risk of blowing the engine up completely.

 

The serious bummer here is that the Subie's paid off, and I was actually looking at buying an older, truck for the wiring work, but with this repair, it looks like it will be a bit longer. That being said, I can't afford to pay someone the money, who doesn't fully understand the work, and/or creates more problems in the end.

 

I guess more than anything I'm looking for some help in finding someone reasonably priced that knows the work involved and has experience in doing it. Does it seem odd to anyone else that these guys gave me a range of price when others have had a solid price for the HG repair? I guess I can understand as it may have to do with replacing other parts (i.e. water pump, belts, plugs, etc...)

[Hendrik]

Seems what I had. RJ 18 , sometimes I had to fill on the way a gallon or so , sometimes everything fine. No real reasom why or why not.

It was e tiny burst in the plastic upper material of the radiator. Only sometimes it opened. Tried with araldit and so on , for a time it worked.Later changed the radiator.The plastic enforced with carbon becomes in time like porcelaine , very hard and not more flexible.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Hendrik

[GeneralDisorder]

A range of pricing is typical of a shop that works more closely with the customer - I do that all the time. The difference is that *some* people like to have choices - choices on brands of parts used, choices on what to replace that is "labor free" because of the engine being apart for something else already.... etc. The $1950 quote is from a different type of shop - the way they do business is different - you drop it off and they call you when it's done. Whatever needs to be replaced *in their opinion* for them to warantee their work is what is done and the high quote is to cover their asses. If it comes in well under that then the rest is just pure profit because you aren't going to see a dime of it.

 

You need to STOP DRIVING IT. Every time you overheat the engine you comprimise the oil - a few of these and you will be very dissapointed when you replace the head gaskets and the rod bearings fail in another 10k miles. You should, at the very least, change the oil EVERY time it overheats. You will kill it if you don't.

 

There are certain costs that are built-in to that job - parts and machine work mostly. The parts, fluids, filters, etc will run about $400 and the machine work is typically about $200 to have the heads fully rebuilt and surfaced. That's $600 that's built in. Labor would be about 8 to 10 hours at whatever their shop-rate is. About 2 to 3 to pull the engine, 1 to 2 to tear it down, and then about those figures on the assembly and installation side as well. I charge $40 an hour and that works out to about $400. So typically a head gasket/valve job runs about $1000 out the door for people that bring these to me.

 

I would be wary of any "import" shop - what brand parts do they use, etc? Subaru's do not like many of the aftermarket parts that are availible and some of them need to be downright avoided for a lasting repair. Head gaskets are a big deal and they are ONLY bought at the dealer by people around this community. Same goes for all the other gaskets used in that engine and also a few other choice items like the thermostat, etc.

 

GD

[Lawsonmh15]

A range of pricing is typical of a shop that works more closely with the customer - I do that all the time. The difference is that *some* people like to have choices - choices on brands of parts used, choices on what to replace that is "labor free" because of the engine being apart for something else already.... etc. The $1950 quote is from a different type of shop - the way they do business is different - you drop it off and they call you when it's done. Whatever needs to be replaced *in their opinion* for them to warantee their work is what is done and the high quote is to cover their asses. If it comes in well under that then the rest is just pure profit because you aren't going to see a dime of it.

 

You need to STOP DRIVING IT. Every time you overheat the engine you comprimise the oil - a few of these and you will be very dissapointed when you replace the head gaskets and the rod bearings fail in another 10k miles. You should, at the very least, change the oil EVERY time it overheats. You will kill it if you don't.

 

There are certain costs that are built-in to that job - parts and machine work mostly. The parts, fluids, filters, etc will run about $400 and the machine work is typically about $200 to have the heads fully rebuilt and surfaced. That's $600 that's built in. Labor would be about 8 to 10 hours at whatever their shop-rate is. About 2 to 3 to pull the engine, 1 to 2 to tear it down, and then about those figures on the assembly and installation side as well. I charge $40 an hour and that works out to about $400. So typically a head gasket/valve job runs about $1000 out the door for people that bring these to me.

 

I would be wary of any "import" shop - what brand parts do they use, etc? Subaru's do not like many of the aftermarket parts that are availible and some of them need to be downright avoided for a lasting repair. Head gaskets are a big deal and they are ONLY bought at the dealer by people around this community. Same goes for all the other gaskets used in that engine and also a few other choice items like the thermostat, etc.

 

GD

 

Ok, that being said, how do I know when it Overheats? I have seen the gauge make it up to the high end, but have yet to have it drive erratically in any way shape or form. Has it overheated?

[GeneralDisorder]

If the gauge spikes it's too hot. The guages in these cars are what we call "dummy gauges" - they sit at halfway over a wide range of temperature. They have to get pretty hot for them to actually register higher than half.

 

Better safe than sorry - $15 in oil vs. replacing an engine.

 

GD

[johnceggleston]

Ok, that being said, how do I know when it Overheats? I have seen the gauge make it up to the high end, but have yet to have it drive erratically in any way shape or form. Has it overheated?

 

if it gets hot enough to run poorly or erratically you will probably need a different engine. if you have to drive it, loose the "vent" plug on top of the radiator, driver's side. it will allow the "gases" to vent, escape, and save some coolant. and check the level every AM and top off if needed.

 

this is not a fix, just a way to drive it, hopefully without damaging the engine, until you make a decision.

 

change the oil.

[Lawsonmh15]

at this point, I'm not really sure what to do as it has been driven several times. I just recently got the oil changed (maybe a week ago with two overheats since), but what assurance do I have that the engine won't go in the next few thousand miles?

Edited November 1, 2010 by Lawsonmh15

[Lawsonmh15]

if it gets hot enough to run poorly or erratically you will probably need a different engine. if you have to drive it, loose the "vent" plug on top of the radiator, driver's side. it will allow the "gases" to vent, escape, and save some coolant. and check the level every AM and top off if needed.

 

this is not a fix, just a way to drive it, hopefully without damaging the engine, until you make a decision.

 

change the oil.

 

how loose does it need to be? This won't send coolant out of the vent plug? Also, how would I know if I've damaged the rod bearings? Will the shop doing the repair be able to tell?

Edited November 1, 2010 by Lawsonmh15

[johnceggleston]

how loose does it need to be? This won't send coolant out of the vent plug?

 

it will allow some coolant to escape, but not all and usually enough will stat to do the job. overheating is caused by the build of of exhaust gas in the cooling system which does one of two things. either it displaces enough coolant dramatically reducing the volume in the system or it creates an "air lock" which blocks the circulation of the coolant. so letting the gases out will usually prevent both situations.

 

BUT in truth i don't know if 120 miles a day at hiway (i assume) speeds will be too much. but driving it without it being vented is deadly. you can always pull over if you see the guage start to climb.

[GeneralDisorder]

You *could* punch the guts out of the thermostat and it might be ok like that for a while. Running it too cold is still much better than running it too hot. I've seen this work on cars with bad head gaskets - it sometimes will do the job for a long time because the engine doesn't get hot enough for the "leak" to really open up and start dumping exhaust gas into the system. I bought a '97 Legacy where this was done and drove it 150 miles home without incident or coolant loss - didn't find out about the gutted thermostat till I tore it apart for a timing belt. When I put in a new Subaru t-stat it overheated within 15 minutes of driving. I changed the radiator and t-stat again and bled the system but it didn't help. I replaced the head gaskets and all is well with it now. Might be a temp fix for you - easy enough to try anyway.

 

GD

Edited November 1, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[Lawsonmh15]

I'm assuming that pulling the T-Stat would result in a non-functional heater. Honestly, I'm at a loss here. I have a friend who went through this and a year later had the same problem and traded it in. Not sure which direction to go. My dad has a garage and tools, but I'm wondering how big a job this really is providing I have the diagrams and instructions from ALLDATA...

 

The alternative would be to trade it in for a new, used car and even then, it would likely have 70K+ miles on it so I wonder what kind of problems I would be getting myself in to.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Lawsonmh15

[GeneralDisorder]

The devil you know vs. the devil you don't......

 

I would fix it. If your dad has enough tools to pull the engine and do the head gaskets (I do NOT reccomend you do them in-car) then go for it. It's not that bad of a job. Only "special" tools you need are an engine hoist (which you can rent for $25 a day, etc) and a torque wrench - which for a single head gasket job the $20 Harbor Frieght model will work.

 

Figure a week of down-time if you work on the weekend. You will have to have the heads resurfaced and that can take a day or three depending on how busy the machine shop you use is. If you pull the engine after work on a weekday you might be able to drop the heads off and pick them up the next day and then have it back in within just a couple days turn-around. Line up your ducks before you pull the trigger - get the engine hoist rental figured out, machine shop location/price/turn-around time, alternate transportation, etc.

 

Pulling the thermostat will not result in a totallly non-functional heater. It will get mostly up to temp just run a little cold. Heater should still function adequately. They also sell some cigarette lighter heaters that will work in a pinch. If you get really cold you can set the passenger seat on fire

 

GD

Edited November 1, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[Lawsonmh15]

It's looking like pops isn't interested in having it done over there... So, we're back to square one.

 

He had suggested it could be a problem with coolant flow (not sure how I'd check that) and he also suggested that maybe the T-Stat I had installed could be a problem. It had been sitting in the box for about 4 years. Not sure where to go with this.

[GeneralDisorder]

Make a new post asking for people in your area willing to help. That's what this board is all about. Someone will likely have a garage and need a few extra $$ plus has the skills. Also check on www.legacycentral.org - good guys over there - and possibly NASIOC as well - there's a lot of folks with skills there too. Just be careful about the fanboys over there as there are a lot of kids that probably don't know what they are doing.

 

It *is* a coolant flow issue - the coolant stops flowing due to the exhaust gas bubble that displaces coolant into the overflow bottle. That is still a head gasket issue - thus the comments above about loosening the purge port on the radiator to vent the exhaust gasses - the system will never reach proper pressure when vented like that though.

 

It is probably not the thermostat. They don't randomely overheat in the middle of driving due to a bad t-stat. Either they stick open or closed (usually closed) - they don't just randomely clamp shut. Typically you see them stick closed and simply overheat immediately.

 

GD