Multiple bearing failures...Update d/s and p/s measurement differences on page 4

[idosubaru]

I didn't remove the used knuckles, so don't know. Hard to imagine the only two bad ones I ever got were the two I put on this car. Though anything is possible at this point.

 

Nip: don't think bearing installation is the issue since once new bearings were installed, next two times were an entire used knuckle assembly.

[nipper]

I didn't remove the used knuckles, so don't know. Hard to imagine the only two bad ones I ever got were the two I put on this car. Though anything is possible at this point.

 

Nip: don't think bearing installation is the issue since once new bearings were installed, next two times were an entire used knuckle assembly.

 

 

Hrmm then my next question is was the car ever hit?

[GeneralDisorder]

Do you have a failed one around that you can cut the bearing race open on and inspect for the type of failure that occured? An inspection of the bearing will tell you a lot.

 

GD

[idosubaru]

Hrmm then my next question is was the car ever hit?

not that i'm aware of. don't see any signs of repair. one owner, great shape, blown front diff, guy sold it cheap and seemed to recount most major things about it. he could have missed something. i just found his email address and asked him, ha ha. we'll see if he responds.

 

Yes to GD - i have one or two of the old hubs. Time is not something I have a lot of, maybe I'll have the shop across the street disassemble them. I have so many failed EJ hubs in my garage hopefully I can tell which came off this LSi?

 

Okay - question, which would you do?

 

1. have a friend that owns a shop do an alignment on it and pay particular attention to that wheel? Shouldn't they be able to tell if something is off measurement wise...though I had it aligned already.

 

2. swap the entire rear assembly with lateral, transverse links, and strut.

[GeneralDisorder]

I would first determine the cause of the bearing failure. It might not even be the car's fault. I understand your frustration but how much time have you spent changing hubs already? At this point time has already been wasted (not that it was your fault, etc - but wasted none-the-less), and now it's time to get serious and figure out what's actually going on.

 

Haveing done a fair amount of failure analysis over the years I can say that it is often VERY helpful to see what the failure was caused by. I just did an EA front wheel bearing - similar situation - failed soon after replacement (it was a new bearing from a local bearing house). Upon inspection it was found that there was clear brinelling on the inner bearing race - the bearing was very likely dropped prior to installation or some hammering took place durring installation that damaged it.

 

Being a Legacy it should have the tapered roller bearing assembly so it should be as simple as driving out the hub - at which point the outer race can be inspected without pulling it from the knuckle, and the inner races can be inspected easily - one haveing fallen out the rear and the other being still pressed onto the hub..... should only take a few minutes with a socket and a 4lb hammer to have that apart for inspection.

 

GD

[idosubaru]

copy that. i have no clue what to look for but i can take pic's.

 

another thought is that the next hub i could get from a FWD vehicle. those are probably less prone to failure, no worries about bashing an axle out when they remove it, and bearings are easier to replace maybe?

[GeneralDisorder]

Here's a couple links with pictures that you can reference. And yes - post some pics of what you find.

 

http://www.stemco.com/Portals/0/Reference/BearingFailurenew.pdf

 

http://www.actionbearing.com/technical_toolbox.html

 

The FWD rear knuckle is probably a very simple unit - from my experience with the EA's it's probably a drum-brake set on a fixed spindle with some roller bearing elements that are likely small and cheap. It would, at the very least, be much simpler and cheaper to replace the bearings on one.

 

GD

[idosubaru]

The FWD rear knuckle is probably a very simple unit - from my experience with the EA's it's probably a drum-brake set on a fixed spindle with some roller bearing elements that are likely small and cheap. It would, at the very least, be much simpler and cheaper to replace the bearings on one.

good guess, the FSM shows a spindle just like you said. looks very simple indeed. those are easier to replace than the AWD units? i'll be like my old school 60's vehicle buddy, replacing bearings with every brake job! :lol:

[GeneralDisorder]

Yeah - usually it's just a couple tapered roller cups that are driven into the drum and then the bearing cone rides on the spindle - one inboard of the drum and one outboard. With a castle nut that's torqued lightly and then backed of a notch or three .

 

I've done a few 2WD bearings along the way - not Legacy's but other stuff and it's all pretty similar.

 

GD

[idosubaru]

*** Update - with some maybe pertinent information?

 

Short story when comparing drivers and passengers side:

1. The bad side (d/s) has a one inch higher gap between the body and wheel.

2. The bottom of the strut, on the bad side, is about one inch further from the inner body structure of the vehicle.

 

 

 

Though I would have assumed an impact would do the opposite - force the drivers (bad side) closer to the body, not further?

 

Is this because the struts are different or there's an actual geometry issue?

 

Either way it suggests something - geometry is off or a strut has been replaced.

[nipper]

I woul;d also pick random spots on the rear of the car, measur them diaganally and make sure things are square. YOu may have to get out a micrometer and measure the hub where the bearing sits. Make sure nothing is out of round.

 

Where are you getting your bearings from, or are they just what comes with the hub.

[NorthWet]

Regarding the FWD rear knuckle, if the 96 is like the earlier (i.e. -1990) Legacy, the bearings are in-unit with the hub assembly. (Not separately available.)

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=115970

[idosubaru]

I'm going to wash the thing well and see if I can see any paint differences and hopefully get some more specific measurements to see where these geometrical differences are coming from. Seems like that has to point to something right?

 

Where are you getting your bearings from,

the only time i replaced them came from Subaru. all the rest were used assemblies.

 

Regarding the FWD rear knuckle, if the 96 is like the earlier (i.e. -1990) Legacy, the bearings are in-unit with the hub assembly. (Not separately available.)

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=115970

Great, thanks Northwet. Yeah all FWD are the same. I forgot about it until this discussion but I have a FWD rear bearing that a friend gave me just to be nice, not knowing it had 4WD bearings in a FWD car. I never opened it knowing it was wrong, but just went and looked and bam there's the bearing! So next time I'll order a FWD knuckle and have bearings ready for it.

Edited November 3, 2010 by grossgary

[WoodsWagon]

Short story when comparing drivers and passengers side:

1. The bad side (d/s) has a one inch higher gap between the body and wheel.

2. The bottom of the strut, on the bad side, is about one inch further from the inner body structure of the vehicle.

 

Is this because the struts are different or there's an actual geometry issue?

 

Either way it suggests something - geometry is off or a strut has been replaced.

 

Check to see if the spring is broken on the side that sits lower. Then measure the distance between where the spring seat is welded to the strut body and where the clamp that bolts to the knuckle is welded to the body. It is possible that someone put one outback strut in on one side, which would account for the height difference. There would be a length difference in where the spring seat is attached if that was the case.

 

This shouldn't cause wheel bearing failure though. Either someone is being too rough pounding the axles out of the old knuckles or pounding the drums or disks off the brakes, or the lateral link bolt is being overtightened.

[WoodsWagon]

http://www.endwrench.com/current/Current6/03/WhBearRep.pdf

 

Here's a good link for the measuring procedure for the bore of the knuckle where the wheel bearing goes. That checks if the knuckle is deformed. It also gives you the torque spec for the latteral link bolt and cautions not to use impact tools on it.

[Fairtax4me]

1. The bad side (d/s) has a one inch higher gap between the body and wheel.

Is this with the car on the ground or off?

2. The bottom of the strut, on the bad side, is about one inch further from the inner body structure of the vehicle.

Outback struts are approximately 1 inch longer (taller) than regular Legacy struts. Maybe a P/O had to replace that strut and got one from an outback without knowing there was a difference. Or they grabbed an Impreza or Forester strut, either of which would be shorter than a legacy strut, to replace a worn strut on the passenger side.

I have a set of outback struts in the shed I can measure the overall length sometime tomorrow.

Edited November 3, 2010 by Fairtax4me

[idosubaru]

Pretty sure the spring isn't broken I'll check though.

 

Gap measurements were just with the car sitting on the ground.

 

Previous owner had all the work done elsewhere so you'd think they wouldn't mix and match but who knows.

[nipper]

Previous owner had all the work done elsewhere so you'd think they wouldn't mix and match but who knows.

 

 

*snicker*

 

no that never happens!

[GeneralDisorder]

I would say something is up with the strut then - sounds like one side is not the right part.

 

GD

[idosubaru]

I would say something is up with the strut then - sounds like one side is not the right part.

 

GD

could that alone cause bearing stress?

 

This is awesome - both of my daily drivers have smoked up rear suspension. Looks like I found something definitive on the other at least.

[idosubaru]

talked to a buddy of mine today that owns a body shop and he recommended measuring the relationship of the front wheels to the back and compare those too.

he said to start with the suspension links rather than the strut, which was the opposite of what i was thinking so i'll probably replace some links first.

 

said he's never heard of this happening before though which i thought was odd. i guess most cars the damage is obvious enough to get fixed or so bad it's just totaled.