BC Loyale93 Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Hello. Ok, so I think I bought a lemon. I bought a 93 loyale with only 150,000KM, seemed well looked after. I've put maybe 3000kms on it, in 4 months. Tick of Death started a week after I bought it...but that's not too concerning anymore. Unless TOD is symptom of same issue causing the oil burning ... the car soon started to make a rattle/chatter noise on long, steep hills. it starts slow then gets progressively worse until a huge smoke cloud comes out the exhaust, and there is a lack of power (its like a forest fire behind the car!) Hills in first or second gear seem ok, dont notice extra clack/rattle noise. no huge smoke. dont notice any smoke on steep long downhills, or around town. used car dealer 'said' compression was good at time of purchase. they pulled and conditioned head and head gasket on right side which didnt fix problem. they are stumped and there is no warranty. I live in an area full of big hills... there is a fair amount of oil in the air filter, as in a small puddle. seems to be a reasonably high amount of pressure in crankcase at idle -lots of puffing steam/vapour. blow by issue? seems like a crankcase pressure build up issue forcing oil into intake. thats my uneducated guess. i have no tools, no experience. I just installed a new subie genuine PCV and no difference. inspected hoses, didnt see any blockages.. so basically on hills it starts to tick (separate from lifter tick noise), the tick gets worse and it blows tons of smoke... help? please any advice appreciated. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Check for an exhaust system blockage - perhaps the catalytic converter has failed or is plugged up. Seems like you have a lot of back-pressure under load - that would cause blow-by and lack of power. Also make sure all the breather hoses are clean and clear as well as the ports in the valve covers, etc. The critical one is the small 1/4" ID hose that shoots off from the driver's side breather line - that is the vacuum break for the system and prevents it from creating too much suction in the PCV system. The ticking could be pinging from the increased cylinder pressure of the exhaust blockage or it could be the timing is advanced too far..... You have a few things to check before you call the engine a lemon. Definitely sounds like there's a problem but I wouldn't call it a boat anchor just yet. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 ...The ticking could be pinging from the increased cylinder pressure of the exhaust blockage or it could be the timing is advanced too far..... GD My guess on the "ticking" is detonation caused by the ingested oil. My SPFI pings heavily when it ingests oil due to "righthand sweeper" issues on the SPFI version. Follow GD's suggestions. BTW, it is easy to overlook gunk-narrowing of the metal nipples on the valve covers, which I believe can cause oil-pumping into the PCV system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 My guess on the "ticking" is detonation caused by the ingested oil. My SPFI pings heavily when it ingests oil due to "righthand sweeper" issues on the SPFI version. Yeah - the carbon can retain heat and cause pre-detonation if there is a lot of it built up in the chambers. You know they made a kit for that right-hand sweeping turn issue right? GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC Loyale93 Posted November 8, 2010 Author Share Posted November 8, 2010 thanks for the advice GD and NW! I'll have a proper look at all the hoses & ports in the PCV system, that bit i can do. As for the catalytic pressure build up, I should add that due to a failed air emissions test, the seller installed a new cat, near the muffler. the original cat (near the Y join) was left in place, so there are two cats on the exhaust pipe. the welding near the new cat wasn't great (or the pipe was in bad shape) and there was a leak, so this has been sealed with muffler cement. How do i check for exhaust flow blockages or problems, or is this something better left to a shop? thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 Yeah - the carbon can retain heat and cause pre-detonation if there is a lot of it built up in the chambers. You know they made a kit for that right-hand sweeping turn issue right? GD The ingested oil lowers the effective octane of the charge. (Engine oil decomposes into detonation-prone molecules at a lower temperature than does the gasoline.) RE: kit - yeah, but the only time I remember the kit is in the middle of long right-hand sweepers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricearu Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 might as well replace the pcv valve too while you are at it. When the engine is under heavy load (ie uphill pulls) the engine has a very high amount of vacuum, that is when you "suck oil" and burn it like so. hell while you are at it, check the air filter too. could be factory and plugged up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 might as well replace the pcv valve too while you are at it. When the engine is under heavy load (ie uphill pulls) the engine has a very high amount of vacuum, that is when you "suck oil" and burn it like so. hell while you are at it, check the air filter too. could be factory and plugged up! This is exactly backwards. The engine has LOW vacuum under heavy load but,has higher blowby. The engine has HIGH vacuum when coasting downhill. Sounds like blowby is pressurizing the crankcase forcing oil into the combustion chambers. Short of a rebuild,I would make sure the PCV tubes are clear,PCV valve OK,and change to a heavier oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 Could still be exhaust back-pressure too - that would cause blow-by under heavy load and loss of power, etc. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricearu Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 you can put a vacuum gauge on a manifold vacuum port, have a helper rev the engine to 2500(ish) rpm's and hold, the vacuum should drop some, and then be steady. if it continues to drop, you probably have an exhaust flow restriction. oh and to naru you are correct, I was thinking backwards. could still be the air filter causing oil to be sucked up the pcv... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 I am the proud new owner of this very car!!! (93 5spd loyale non-turbo) I bought it off of this super nice fella over the weekend. The body and interior are both immaculate - only 156k with most of the original Subaru inspections documented up to 4 years ago or so!!!! I haven't tested it out much yet or tinkered but it needs a HG for sure - its got some serious mayo under the cap and in the filler tube. He has a new OEM pcv valve in there so I plan on approaching the exhaust restriction suggestion after the HG's, PCV clean and a reseal (oil pump/pan/covers/belts etc...). When I fired it up I saw some exhaust leaking from the resonator and as mentioned earlier in this post there are two catalytic converters...one at the Y and another just before the muffler. The previous owner said the shop installed the second one because it was 'easier'. Ricearu mentions a vacuum guage - is there a particular type or any adapters that I need or will any old vacuum guage work? Or is there another way to check for exhaust flow restriction? Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Pressure gauge in the O2 sensor bung is better,but,vacuum gauge is a lot easier.Any will do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robm Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I saw that car on Craig's List, but it was too far away to check out. The price was certainly right, even with all the problems. Don't say head gasket just yet. Mayo on the filler cap is normal on these cars at this time of year. Any moisture, and there is normally some, in the crankcase gases condense on the filler cap, as it is so far away from the block and in the cool air that comes through the rad. So, this thing has how many "appliances" in the exhaust system? A cat at the Y pipe, a "resonator," an aftermarket cat and a muffler? I believe you will find that the "resonator" is another cat. These things have 2: one a reducer, the other an oxidizer, instead of a more usual "3 way" cat. If exhaust is seeping out of it, that may be where the restriction is located. I would look at the restriction idea first, before tearing into the engine any deeper. Save your self time, money, parts and grief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Thanks Rob. I have an 88GL and two other Loyales in the family (91 and 94) that are absolutely clean under the cap and in the filler tube year round. The exhaust on this one (93) smells a little too sweet, it blows a bit of white smoke, has that mayo problem, the last shop had the heads off and did one HG...I am going to just redo the HG's anyway because it has an oil leak, so the cams are coming off anyway and I have to make use of this engine stand and crane that are taking up room in my shop! Plus that way I will have peace of mind knowing that it's all sealed nicely. Yes, the restriction idea...I was going to start at the 'resonator' or whatever it is actually called since it's puking right there. I will update once I have been under it for more than 30 seconds, just haven't had much time yet. Thanks again for the info. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robm Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Yup, sounds like HG's. I am glad I wasn't tempted to buy it, being so far away. No lift or stand or time.... I have had milkshake on my oil filler cap in cool weather from day one, when I bought my Loyale in November of 2003. And that was in Vancouver. I wonder how you avoid it? I wonder if an exhaust restriction could cause the blown HG's? Hmm. 4 EA82's. Do you have a decent one you want to get rid of? Say,<200K km's, and not enough rust to attract the police? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I finally got under it last night and well, I was mislead. I was going off of what the previous owner told me. There is only one 'cat'...its the usual setup. The Y pipe, then the 'cat', then the 'resonator' (forgive me - I don't know which is which name or what) then straight back to the muffler. I knew having two 'cats' sounded dumb. I yanked the engine out last night and during the process I found milkshake/mayo everywhere. The intake boot has a layer about 2 or 3 inches thick thoughout it, its in all PCV hoses (kind of expected that), in the air box, and under the rocker covers. There's so much of it in the big rubber intake boot, it kind of looks like pudding...Bill Cosby must have been in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robm Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 That should have showed up as coolant loss. Was the rad low, too? And an extra cat wouldn't have been any dumber than lots of other things that have been done to these cars... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 Yeah, coolant was really low. Ha ha, I suppose there are some questionable tactics that would arise out of desperation/need/creativity/lucky guesses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I put it all back together, new HG's, oil pump seals, intake gaskets - the driver side HG was shot and it was missing the cam carrier o-ring. Cleaned all of the PCV inlest and hoses out with carb cleaner and compressed air, replaced all questionable clamps, new filters and filled the tank. So I established a baseline testing scenario...and took it for a burn...unfortunately... The original issue (big poof of smoke, mild loss of power until it stopped smoking, oil in the airbox polluting the new filter) resurfaced after aropund 30 km of driving or so - it wasn't on a hill though. Maybe in 3rd gear, doing 70km or so. It stalled so I pulled over and started the car again, drove another 5 KM or so home and the issue didn't occur. An hour later I took it for another drive so I could get a handle on when the issue actually happens but it didn't happen again until another 10Km or so, didn't stall this time - just blew the smoke so I kept going to see what would happen. Another 5 K or so and it did it again, this time it stalled and I couldn't start the car, it would just trun over and wouldn't hold idle. It would just die within 2 or 3 seconds of 'running'. I towed it home with my GL and cleaned off the MAF sensor (little resistors inside the boot) and tested the sensor for resistance - it checked out good according to haynes and it started up after that...whew I thought I had broken something serious, the 'blowback/oil/junk' must have coated the sensor enough to fail I suppose. So as per an earlier recommendation/test for an exhaust system blockage, I added a vaccum guage to the intake in place of the brake booster line. I sat in the car and ran it at around 2500 rpm's steady and the guage would stay at around the '70' mark I think. The needle didn't move at all while I held it at 2500 unless I changed the throttle up and down. I held that 2500 RPM for a good minute or so. Do I need to hold it there longer or something? Judging by that test, my vaccuum tester works great, it doesn't seem to indicate a blocked exhaust though. Is there another test I can try short of 'shotgunning' in a whole new exhaust? Or am I not testing properly? Thanks guys, sorry for the essay... Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Another update... I ran the vaccum guage on it again last night and based on the chart here (thanks to a post by naru): http://www.classictruckshop.com/clubs/earlyburbs/projects/vac/uum.htm According to their chart, I have a blocked exhaust - the scenario I found is this one: "Needle jumps 2"- 5" above normal upon quick deceleration, but hesitates at a higher pressure before returning to normal. Restricted exhaust system causing back pressure" I started the car with the guage on the intake (long enough hose so I could see the guage while sitting in the car), then held at around 3000 rpms, and took my foot off the pedal, the guage immediately pinned up around an extra 5", then stayed there and slowly moved back to 20. It stayed solid around 20 during idle. I did the test like 20 times just to be sure and it happens every time. That being said...how does one go about diagnosing WHICH part of the exhaust is blocked? Cut it apart and try to play it like a didgeridoo? Put a mouse in there with a piece of cheese at the other end? Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) I would be careful not to jump to conclusions based on the somewhat flimsy vacuum gauge evidence.Gauge behaviour sounds normal to me depending on how long it took to return to an idle reading.I would expect a plugged exhaust to show a lower than normal vacuum reading with the engine revved.Yours did not.Take that chart w/a grain of salt.I`ve seen very plugged exhausts hold the gauge at positive pressure w/the engine is revved. At least compare the results w/one of your other cars and/or drop the exhaust off the heads and try again. Edited February 22, 2011 by naru Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Good call. I will do both - drop the exhaust and test again, and also use the other cars results as cross reference. I will report on the findings. Thanks Naru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 There is a noticeable difference between the GL and the Loyale. I first hold the RPMS at around 2500, and the vac guage on the GL will drop quickly after releasing the pedal, like as fast as it rose. However with the guage on the Loyale, performing the same test (the Loyale is the one with suspected exhaust restriction) the needle kind of hesitates before it falls and then when its falling it kind of stalls again on the way down. Its very slight, but it's there. Also, when the needle is coming down, it seems a little slow. I removed the exhaust from the Loyale and repeated the test, and the needle seems to move more freely. Something really odd is that after doing these tests, I notice a LOT of exhaust in the oil filler tube. It pours out of there for a while after shutting the car off and opening the cap. I really don't know what else to think this could be except for a restricted exhaust. I pulled the PCV valve and it is still brand new (from the dealer). Any thoughts? Further tests I should try? Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naru Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 Blowby. You may well have a slightly restricted exhaust,but,IMO the evidence is far from conclusive. Seems to me that it is not restricted enough to cause "a LOT of exhaust in the oil filler tube" after a lightly loaded run. A run w/the exhaust dropped would settle that question. Pressure gauge in the O2 sensor bung is a more definitive test. A spec from another application I`ve seen was 2psi max at 2500 rpm in park. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted February 24, 2011 Share Posted February 24, 2011 Thanks Naru but uhh...I just did a compression test and I found something a little worrying... I don't know the cylinder numbers but: Driver side front : 150 Driver side rear: 150 Pass front :145ish Pass rear: 40!!!!! Yes 40 and I checked it 4 times!!!! So what should I do next? Leakdown test? Pull the heads again and have them machined? I am just not 100% sure what to look for on the block/pistons/heads/valves. Any advice would be appreciated. I am willing to do it all myself as this isn't my daily driver. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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