2.5 Phase 1 motor, need valve adjustment??

[Rooster2]

I have both a 98 & 99 OB wagons with 2.5 phase 1 motors. On a recent thread here, someone said that these motors need their valves adjusted at 105K miles. This is the first time that I have ever heard of this. Is this true?

[Ross]

Also news to me -- I have a 1995 JDM EJ25, and I always assumed it had hydraulic lifters as if it sits for a while (a week or two) it'll make what sounds like valve clatter when it is started, lasting a second or two.... Do some have hydraulic lifters?

[987687]

The ej25 wasn't solid until phase 2.

Phase 1 up till 99 was hydraulic.

[Rooster2]

The ej25 wasn't solid until phase 2.

Phase 1 up till 99 was hydraulic.

 

 

So, the 99 Phase one in an OBW does not have hydraulic lifters, and therefore the lifters need to be adjusted? The motor appears to be the same as what's in my 98 OBW,

[987687]

up till, and including 99. Sorry.

[johnceggleston]

The ej25 wasn't solid until phase 2.

Phase 1 up till 99 was hydraulic.

 

i don't think this is correct.

 

ej22 had hydraulic adjusters in 95 - 96? but were discontinued after that. i didn't think the ej25 ever had them. they have bucket & shims i thought.

 

or am i missing something.?

Edited November 16, 2010 by johnceggleston

[987687]

I'm pretty sure the last one I took apart had hydraulic adjusters... I could be confusing that with another engine. I'm really sorry if I'm wrong on this

[987687]

After doing some reading, only the 96 ej25 used HLAs. 97 on up went to bucket shims. It musta been a 96 DOHC I was toying with then ...

 

So yes, you need to adjust them

[SchwarzeEwigkt]

My '97 has buckets and shims. And I need to adjust them. Just can't be bothered at the moment. A couple exhausts are a little too tight and a couple intakes are a little too loose. It's fine. I'll adjust it next summer.

[Gloyale]

My '97 has buckets and shims. And I need to adjust them. Just can't be bothered at the moment. A couple exhausts are a little too tight and a couple intakes are a little too loose. It's fine. I'll adjust it next summer.

 

You run the risk of burning a valve on any that are too tight.

 

It is a PITA to get tothem, but worth it to save a full vavlve job.

 

Of course, you likely will pull heads for Headgsakets at some point so maybe you could wait.

[Rooster2]

Well after reading all the previous posts to my thread, it looks like a hung jury. Some say the phase 1 requires valve adjustment, others say the valves are hydraulically actuated, so don't require adjustment. Can anyone tell me with stone cold certainty that my valves in both 98 & 99 Leggie OB wagons need adjusting?

[987687]

According to wikipedia. After the HLA engine in the 96 outback they went to bucket shims. In the phase one DOHC engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_EJ_engine#EJ25

[Rooster2]

According to wikipedia. After the HLA engine in the 96 outback they went to bucket shims. In the phase one DOHC engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_EJ_engine#EJ25

 

Well I guess the above link answers my question. The use of bucket shims requires valve adjustment. This is the first that I have ever heard this. I have never read about the need for this until just a few days ago. Learned something new today.

[GeneralDisorder]

ALL Subaru EJ DOHC engines require valve adjustment. Subaru does not manufacture a DOHC system that uses any kind of hydraulic lash adjustment (that I have seen). The '96 OBW had an EJ22 and they were SOHC engines.

 

Additionally - you WILL burn an exhaust valve if you let it go. I just did a valve job on a 97 OBW with a burned valve due to zero clearance on one of the #4 exhaust valves. Engine had it's original, factory head gaskets and had 169k on it. They missed the valve adjustment at 105k and it did not make it to #2.

 

Before that I did a valve job on a SOHC EJ22 with solid lifters ('97 Legacy) that burned the same #4 exhaust valve at 199k. Also never had a valve adjustment. Again it did not make it to the #2 valve adjusment.

 

IF YOU DONT ADJUST YOUR VALVES YOU WILL BE PAYING FOR A VALVE JOB.

 

Trust me - you don't want to pay for that. On the DOHC engines it WILL be over $1000. The heads are very expensive to work on and run about $450 to $500 for machine work to rebuild them, repair the valve damage, and set them up with correct shims, etc.

 

When the exhaust valves burn you lose compression in that cylinder - it will start small and work it's way (rapidly) up to a total misfire. The OBW I did ran like a 3 legged dog and had 60 psi in the #4. The EJ22 was much worse and had absolutely zero compression on the #4. You couldn't drive either of them really - very, very nasty idle and no power.

 

GD

Edited November 16, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[Qman]

The ej25 wasn't solid until phase 2.

Phase 1 up till 99 was hydraulic.

 

Wrong!

 

95 JDM, 96 USDM, was the only hydraulic 2.5l

 

Valve lash is usually just checked on DOHC engines, not adjusted. It is better to do with a valve job anyway. Most backyard mechanics are not able to set the lash very well. Besides, the shim kits are not cheap. SOHC engines are adjustable rockers with adjusting screws. Much easier to adjust.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Qman

[Rooster2]

Just called my independent garage, and talked with the owner. According to his labor book, a Subie valve adjustment calls for seven hours of labor at a cost of $90/hours, plus valve cover gaskets, and who knows what ever else in term of parts. That is prolly a labor minimum of $630, and I bet closing in on being an $800 job, when the final tab comes in. He said his shop doesn't do that type of work, so most likely dealer only where I live.

 

Is this something that Subie owners belly up to the bar to have done? Both of my cars are running great, and the motors sound great. Is valve adjustment necessary, or simply a luxury?

[Qman]

That is why it is usually done when performing a valve job/head gasket.

[Rooster2]

That is why it is usually done when performing a valve job/head gasket.

 

Yea, I was slowly beginning to think the same thing. At that cost, valve adjustment would not be realistically done until something broke, like requiring a valve job or head gasket replacement. Both of my cars with phase 1 motors were bought used, and now have about 150K miles on both. So, I assume previous owners replace head gaskets that included valve adjustment.

[Qman]

Yea, I was slowly beginning to think the same thing. At that cost, valve adjustment would not be realistically done until something broke, like requiring a valve job or head gasket replacement. Both of my cars with phase 1 motors were bought used, and now have about 150K miles on both. So, I assume previous owners replace head gaskets that included valve adjustment.

 

Maybe, how many miles were on them when you bought them?

[GeneralDisorder]

People do their own valve adjustment all the time - it's not talked about a lot on this forum but there are TONS of threads on it over on NASIOC (where a large percentage of owners have EJ20 and EJ25 DOHC turbo's). Many people do it with a large screwdriver used as leverage to compress the valve spring/bucket and pop the shim out. You take a feeler gauge and check the existing clearance - write that down. Then you pop out the shim, measure it with a mic. and order a new shim that's smaller to enlarge the clearance to spec. It's pretty simple and the shims are ~$6 each from the dealer. You are looking about about 4 hours and about $100 to $150 for some exhaust valve shims and the valve cover gaskets/grommets.

 

This aint rocket science and I've seen what neglecting them will do - I wouldn't sugest waiting till you need a $1200 valve job or a head gasket replacement (especially if they have already been done!). This would be a mistake IMO.

 

I would NOT assume a head gasket replacement means a valve adjust. Dealers very often don't even resurface the heads - let alone do a proper valve adjustment. Especially if the mileage doesn't indicate a need. Many folks open them up to find the clearances are fine at 105k - but don't bet on it because if they aren't you won't make it to 210k.

 

You are only 20k miles short of where I've seen neglect of valve clearance go horribly wrong. Don't take the chance.

 

BTW - you need to find a new shop - if your shop can't do a simple valve adjustment for you..... well that's pretty lame is all I can say. That's a pretty routine affair in the world of machines that I come from. Their price and labor estimate is pretty rediculous also. At that kind of labor rate you might as well just go to the dealer - you aren't saving much paying these jokers $90 an hour. Most dealers are right in the same price range.

 

GD

Edited November 16, 2010 by GeneralDisorder

[Qman]

People do their own valve adjustment all the time - it's not talked about a lot on this forum but there are TONS of threads on it over on NASIOC (where a large percentage of owners have EJ20 and EJ25 DOHC turbo's). Many people do it with a large screwdriver used as leverage to compress the valve spring/bucket and pop the shim out. You take a feeler gauge and check the existing clearance - write that down. Then you pop out the shim, measure it with a mic. and order a new shim that's smaller to enlarge the clearance to spec. It's pretty simple and the shims are ~$6 each from the dealer. You are looking about about 4 hours and about $100 to $150 for some exhaust valve shims and the valve cover gaskets/grommets.

 

This aint rocket science and I've seen what neglecting them will do - I wouldn't sugest waiting till you need a $1200 valve job or a head gasket replacement (especially if they have already been done!). This would be a mistake IMO.

 

I would NOT assume a head gasket replacement means a valve adjust. Dealers very often don't even resurface the heads - let alone do a proper valve adjustment. Especially if the mileage doesn't indicate a need. Many folks open them up to find the clearances are fine at 105k - but don't bet on it because if they aren't you won't make it to 210k.

 

You are only 20k miles short of where I've seen neglect of valve clearance go horribly wrong. Don't take the chance.

 

BTW - you need to find a new shop - if your shop can't do a simple valve adjustment for you..... well that's pretty lame is all I can say. That's a pretty routine affair in the world of machines that I come from. Their price and labor estimate is pretty rediculous also. At that kind of labor rate you might as well just go to the dealer - you aren't saving much paying these jokers $90 an hour. Most dealers are right in the same price range.

 

GD

 

His shop quoted him the amount of time it takes to do the job correctly.

 

A screw driver to pop out shims. That is assinign. You inspect the lash. You remove the cams. Yes, belts and all. Mic shims replace with correct thickness and re assemble. Do it right or leave it to the professionals.

[Ross]

Sounds like a terrible idea to muck round with a screw driver in there..... If you really odn't want to remove the cams (not really very hard...) you could at least use something that doesn't have a hardened tip....

 

On a side note, anyone know why they discontinued the HLAs? Mine will have them, it's a '95 engine.

[GeneralDisorder]

A screw driver to pop out shims. That is assinign. You inspect the lash. You remove the cams. Yes, belts and all. Mic shims replace with correct thickness and re assemble. Do it right or leave it to the professionals.

 

I respectfully dissagree - the screwdriver is simply what *some* people have used in place of the Subaru valve adjustment tool - which DOES NOT require removing the cams or belts, etc. It is, however, $300 from SPX. It simply compresses the valve in place so that you can pop the shim out of the bucket. Obviously this doesn't work on shimless buckets but it DOES work just fine on the engines being discussed here.

 

You use a large flat-blade screwdriver to compress the valve spring and bucket - the valve and bucket being the fulcrum and you use a convient spot on an un-machined portion of the cam.

 

Many people have done this without any trouble. In place of buying a $300 tool that you may use twice in your lifetime or complete dissasembly of the cams, belts, etc it is an acceptable solution. Be careful of course - that goes without saying. But to call it "asinine" is not warranted - especially if you haven't tried it.

 

GD

[Rooster2]

BTW - you need to find a new shop - if your shop can't do a simple valve adjustment for you..... well that's pretty lame is all I can say. That's a pretty routine affair in the world of machines that I come from. Their price and labor estimate is pretty rediculous also. At that kind of labor rate you might as well just go to the dealer - you aren't saving much paying these jokers $90 an hour. Most dealers are right in the same price range.

 

My independent shop does not charge $90/hour, they charge about $60/hour. They just pass on doing the valve adjustment work. It is not their forte, and they know it. I just know that my Subie dealer charges $90/hour. My independent shop looked up the labor rate in their book to see that it is typically seven hours of work. My guess is that you work in a Subie shop, would you run the labor up to seven hours of work? If not, what is a fair number of hours to do a valve adjustment?

[SchwarzeEwigkt]

You run the risk of burning a valve on any that are too tight.

 

It is a PITA to get tothem, but worth it to save a full vavlve job.

 

Of course, you likely will pull heads for Headgsakets at some point so maybe you could wait.

 

I said they were too tight, not that there wasn't any clearance. The ones that are tight are about 1/1000th too tight, so they're still closing and staying closed plenty long enough to cool off.

 

Head gaskets have already been replaced with the revised ones.

 

Regardless, I'm going to put this to bed:

 

• Phase 1 EJ25's are DOHC. They have shim-over-bucket direct actuation valve systems. They started in '96 and went to '99 in Legacies but hung around for longer in other models IIRC.
  
• Phase 2 EJ25's are SOHC. They have rocker arms with screw type lash-adjusters. They showed up in '98 in Foresters IIRC.
  
• EJ22's are SOHC. They have rocker arms and hydraulic lash-adjusters.
  
• ALL EJ25's need their valves adjusted periodically.
  
• The EJ25D with the shim-over-bucket ones are a pain to adjust but doable; see above about the screwdriver and such. A shop can do it but it'll cost a fortune because it's a long job.
  
• The SOHC EJ25's are easy to adjust. You only need your feeler gauges, a screwdriver and a wrench (after pulling the valve covers, of course).
  
• HLA's don't need to be adjusted; they adjust themselves. They need to be replaced once in a great while if they gum up and start to stick.
  
• If you don't adjust your valves, at best the valvetrain gets noisy. At worst, it tightens up and you burn exhaust valves. Typically what happens is the intakes loosen up and the exhausts tighten up. If you don't adjust it, the intakes clatter, the exhaust valves fry and you pull the heads and do a valve job.
  
• A valve job WILL cost more than shimming your valves, especially if you are lucky enough to be able to reuse some shims.

 

Moral of the story: If you own an engine without hydraulically adjusted valves, adjust them once in a while.

 

Fun fact: Most modern engines are hydraulically adjusted unless they're performance engines. HLA's tend to start to collapse and cause oil to cavitate at high RPM's and adversely affect valve lift and thus output.

 

Example of a "normal" motor vs. a high performance one:

 

BMW M54B25

2.5L Inline 6 used in the 3 and 5 series, Z's

189HP at 5900RPM, redline 6500RPM

Maintenance free DOHC rocker arm/HLA valvetrain

 

BMW S45B32

3.2L Inline 6 used in the M3 and Z3/4 M Roadster and Coupe

333HP at 7900RPM, redline 8000RPM

Shim-over-bucket DOHC valvetrain, adjustment required every 100k*mi