90' Loyale with blown head gasket. What engines can I swap?

[FastCars&PBRs]

Hey there everybody. I have a 1990 Loyale with a blown head gasket and 223k miles. I'm thinking that rebuilding it is probably going to be a lot more work than just the head gasket with that many miles, and I would like to get it running again quickly... So as long as I guaranteed have to pull the engine, what else can I drop in that would maybe be a little more fun without breaking the bank? I've been told ea20/22's will fit without modification, but will they bolt up to the existing transmission (5 spd)? What's a good price for one? What would you do if you were in my shoes and wanted to spend < $1k ? ( I promise lots of pics when I do the project! )

[Subruise]

welcome to the board, use the search function. youll see that engine swaps are quite common in these cars, however a hg job is going to be less painful. how much less? search.

 

 

RV

[Numbchux]

EA20s/22s don't exist. your EA82 is the biggest motor of that generation.

 

 

You can get EJ series motors. an EJ22 swap is not too bad. but really depends on your definition of "breaking the bank"....

[GeneralDisorder]

As a first-timer and one is not very familiar with engine swaps, you will NOT be able to do an EJ swap for under $1000. With experience, lots of parts, lots of tools, etc - maybe right around that. I know I would be hard pressed to do an EJ22 swap into a Loyale for under $1000 in a short time-frame. Give me a few months to collect parts, barter, haggle, etc - possible certainly. But for you it is very unlikely.

 

You should do the head gaskets - they aren't hard and the engine doesn't have to come out. Just pull the heads, have them milled ($30 to $40 per) and put them back on with new Fel-Pro gaskets ($15 each). Should run less than $250 for all the parts as well as new water pump, timing belt kit, seals and gaskets, etc.

 

GD

[TheLoyale]

Don't forget a cut down wiring harness that you would need if you were to EJ it.

 

You are better doing the Headgaskets, and resealing a few things along with a new waterpump and Oil pump. The EA82 is a sound engine with fresh Headgaskets.

 

-Tom

[FastCars&PBRs]

Thanks so much for the helpful responses!

 

Sorry to ask such a common question, I searched but apparently not enough (links would be appreciated if you know of any good threads off the top of your head.)

 

Sounds like most of the info I was given about swapping was way off base, and I might be better off doing the head gaskets for right now, being as it's snowing like crazy here, and I know this thing will climb a freaking mountain if I can keep it form burning through antifreeze.

 

I was told I have to pull the engine to do the head gasket but I really don't? does anyone have pics/directions/pdf manuals/links/advice for the job?

 

I'll save a lift and engine swap for the summer time when my garage isn't so dang cold!

Edited December 1, 2010 by FastCars&PBRs

[NorthWet]

The (initial) big pain of doing the head gaskets with the engine in-car is getting off the cam covers... one side is REALLY tight against the frame rail. My other major issu would be leaning over the car for a couple of hours, and making sure that i had some thick grease/Vasoline to stick the rockers in place during reassembly.

 

BTW, what makes you think that the headgaskets are blown?

[GeneralDisorder]

A ratcheting 10mm wrench makes short work of the driver's side valve cover.

 

I usually pull the engine - because I am tired of leaning over engine bays.

 

But I've done lots of them without pulling them. Just not anymore - EJ's are much harder to do without pulling and I don't work on much EA stuff outside of my personal stuff anymore.

 

GD

[MilesFox]

pull the motor and set it in a milk crate or 5 gallon bucket for a stand.

 

you can get away with doing the head gaskets and cam seals. Leave the rear seal alone if its not leaking, and dont even think about opening up the bottom end, because you will find the crosshatches are still there, and then you will have to contend with putting it back together and hope it was as tight as it was to begin with.

 

head gaskets are easy enough on this car. It would be silly to do only one side.

 

good luck

[FastCars&PBRs]

Thanks again guys. I'm pretty certain its the head gasket, though I haven't seen any 'foam' in the oil, it over heats randomly, gets rid of lots of antifreeze with out a leak i can find, gives puffs of white smoke that smells like antifreeze, and has gas bubbles coming through the coolant resevior. sounds like head gasket to you guys?

 

Trick is, I don't actually have an engine hoist, I was going to borrow one for the job, but if I don't have too that would be a lot less hassle.

 

I have a 10mm ratcheting wrench so that's no problem, is there anything else I have to remove to get there? also, how am I supposed to torque the bolts a specific amount if I cant fit a torque wrench in there? just wing it?

 

I've never done a HG job before, is it necessary to keep the rockers in place with grease?

 

I have a worry that with 223k on the block I'm going to get the heads off and find something else wrong that needs to be fixed, is there anything else specific that I should look at while I've got it opened up?

 

Thanks you guys are so helpful!

[TheLoyale]

Even with 223k there shouldn't be much wrong with the heads/rocker or lifters. While the heads are off you can check the Lifter (Make sure the oil passage hole is open) if you don't have any ticking then I wouldn't worry.

 

Since the engine will be in the car, it is handy to have some grease to keep the rocker arms in there while putting the head back on, do not mix match the rockers with other Lifters, as each rocker arm is already worn to each lifter.

 

Also, when you take the head bolts out, clean the threads of them well for easy reassembly. Also dipping the bolts in some oil before screwing them in helps.

 

Mainly just check for sludge or "milk shake" since you might have had coolant entering the oil system. You might also want to buy new Valve cover seals with the groments for the cover bolts.

 

Cheers,

-Tom

[TheLoyale]

Also, re-torquing the head bolts.

 

Start with 22 ft.lbs

Then to 43 ft.lbs

Then finally 47 ft.lbs

 

Never more then 50 ft.lbs

 

There is also a "Tightening Sequence" you should look up so you don't end up pinching the new gasket.

 

-Tom

[NorthWet]

Thanks again guys. I'm pretty certain its the head gasket, though I haven't seen any 'foam' in the oil, it over heats randomly, gets rid of lots of antifreeze with out a leak i can find, gives puffs of white smoke that smells like antifreeze, and has gas bubbles coming through the coolant resevior. sounds like head gasket to you guys?

 

Trick is, I don't actually have an engine hoist, I was going to borrow one for the job, but if I don't have too that would be a lot less hassle.

 

I have a 10mm ratcheting wrench so that's no problem, is there anything else I have to remove to get there? also, how am I supposed to torque the bolts a specific amount if I cant fit a torque wrench in there? just wing it?

 

I've never done a HG job before, is it necessary to keep the rockers in place with grease?

 

I have a worry that with 223k on the block I'm going to get the heads off and find something else wrong that needs to be fixed, is there anything else specific that I should look at while I've got it opened up?

 

Thanks you guys are so helpful!

The cylinders/rings are very durable, as are the crank bearings. 223k miles is not a large number for these engines. Your engine will likely still have the original honing (machining) marks in the cylinders.

 

Once the covers are off of the cam case, room opens up to remove the cam case from the head, and then there is plenty of room to get at the head bolts. No concern about getting in a torque wrench.

 

The rockers float between the hydraulic lash adjusters (HLAs) and the valve stem, kept in place by the cam in the cam case. Until you reattach the cam case, the grease is useful in holding the otherwise unsupported rockers to the HLAs and valve stems. (If done on an engine stand, it is simpler to turn that cylinder bank to the vertical for reassembly.)

 

Be careful removing the intake manifold bolts, as they tend to corrode from contact with coolant and can snap if you try to force them.

 

Also, you might want to remember to disconnect the O2 sensor wire before dropping the exhaust manifold... something I tend to forget.

[FastCars&PBRs]

Thanks again everyone for the input!

 

I'm gearing up to do this. I don't have an engine hoist so I'm going to attempt to do this with the engine still in the bay. Going to replace the timing belt while I'm in it as well. When I originally got the car it had some chunks in the coolant, possibly a stop leak product of some sort, should I definitely do the water pump then too? (cost?) should I pull the radiator and do a flush or something? I know radiators are notoriously weak...

 

Also, is there a nice way to bleed the fuel line pressure without too much mess/explosion?

 

On a totally different note, the oil pressure gauge sometimes reads very low when stopped (but randomly it seems...) and I've heard of a gasket problem with the oil pumps, does this sound familiar to anyone here? I know I'm not taking the oil pan out for this job but is this something I should investigate while I have it up on stands?

 

Thanks all!

[TheLoyale]

If you dripping oil its either coming from the Oil Pump seal and O-ring (Micky Mouse seal) or the cam seals/o-rings (Or both) this will cause lower oil pressure, or your sending unit on the front of the oil pump is getting old. If you going to do Timing belts then since you are in there, I would get a new waterpump and seal, New By-pass hose for the top of the waterpump, New oil pump and seal kit, Fel-pro Cam carrier seals, and new Timing tensioners (If yours sound like Skateboard wheels, it is time to replace them)

 

Check out Rockauto for this stuff, or you can get a Timing kit off ebay for $120 IIRC.

 

If you do all this, then you will have no worries with this engine for a long time. Also, leave the timing covers off, makes it way easier to re-tension the belts and check them. Plus next time you replace them, you don't have to pull the Crank pulley.

 

If your oil pan gasket has some sepage, just torque the bolts a little and see if it helps.

 

Cheers,

-Tom:)

[FastCars&PBRs]

Good heads up on the ebay belt kit. No oil leaks that I can detect which makes me think pump... Oh well, a different problem for a different thread.

 

Currently I'm a bit stuck getting to the timing belts. I would like to keep the covers, but the left most cover has a single very stubborn bolt. The bolt and sleeve are just spinning freely, no matter how much pressure I apply by wedging a screw driver in there.... I would just break it, but it appears that all of the other bolts on this belt cover already spin freely or are missing, and this is the sole functional connecting piece. Any advice for getting this sucker outta there without breaking my last bolt? Or should I really just do away with the belt covers all together? I drive through a lot of mud and snow so it seems like they are maybe functional....

 

Any thoughts?

[TheLoyale]

Yep, thats the typical issue with the covers. The sleave is only pressed in and has a rough mating surface. But with age thye break loose and the bolt gets stuck. Sometimes the bolt can be very hard to unscrew from the sleave (I tested one old one I had once) Had to use a vise and about 15lbs of force to break the bolt loose.

 

You can always leave the rear half of the covers on (Like I did) it helps keep stuff out. I don't know to many folks that have had issues with stuff getting onto the belts (Rocks etc)

 

If you really want to run th covers, you can zip-tie them on if you still have a few holes that aren't broken off.

 

-Tom

[MilesFox]

dont bother with opening up the bottom end. What you are likely to find when removing the heads, is all the crosshatching is still there.

 

removing the heads will show you where the HG failed, anywhere that is shiny aluminum where the carbon was steamed off.

 

if you have a jack, you can undo the exhaust, pitch bar, motor mounts and jack the bejeezus out of the bottom of the trans to raise the motor up above the framerails.

 

if you can find a friend, 2 people can easily lift the motor out.

 

take off the intake and alternator to make it light enoughif you want to wrestle it by hand.

 

i was able to pull an engine by hand by myself using ropes and a long pipe. i will just say that the car i was takingit from was junk. use the 2nd man for help

[XCSP700]

I pulled the engine out of the car with 3 ratchet straps hooked around a beam in the garage. (ratchet straps aren't meant for lifting, don't get yourself killed) i would go back and forth between the 3 running one all the way in. doing the other 2, loosening the first one and starting again from there until i had the engine out. Then i rolled the car out from under it. and me and a friend picked it up off the hooks and put it down by hand. It's not too heavy.

 

I would never attempt to do it in the car, its so much nicer working on it on a bench.