Cam Carrier Removal Question

[Deener]

I am tearing apart an EA82 (unfortunately WITH AC) in hopes to replace the head gaskets and I have a question about the process. I have decided to do it with the engine in the car. (Previous tip from GD was to use a 10mm ratcheting wrench for the valve covers...good call!!)

 

So far I have the alt, AC, pcv hoses, intake, and valve covers off. Intake gaskets are perfect (still replacing them nonetheless) so I am convinced the HG's are toast (mayo in the dipstick and oil filler, unexplained coolant loss).

 

Well I have been staring at the cam towers and I am not too sure about myself here...

 

Do I have to get a special cam sprocket wrench and take off the cam sprockets or do I just have to remove the timing belts to get the cam carriers off before I get at the heads...?

 

Dean

[Caboobaroo]

You can do it either way. I usually pull the timing belts after I've loosened the 3 cam pulley bolts and continue dissassembly since I feel its the easiest for me at least. I have seen it done without taking the pulleys off as well without any ill effects

[Deener]

Sweet thanks. Ok, well I will just take off the belts and replace them while I am at it then. Actually that raises another question...

 

After I take the belts off and redo the hg's- when I reassemble everything will I have to reset the timing or should the cam slap right back on and into place without any fuss?

 

Dean

[idosubaru]

right remove the timing belts, then valve covers, cam carrier, then heads.

 

you probably don't have to remove the cam sprocket but i always do since there's a seal and oring under there that's silly not to replace while it's all apart anyway.

 

no special tools needed to do headgaskets, just typical socket sets and stuff.

 

timing alignment is easy when you reassembled. cam sprockets have a guide pin and can only be installed one way. once the sprockets are installed timing belt installation is easy, lots of info on here about that.

 

do yourself a huge favor and use Fel Pro permatroque headgasktes so you don't have to retorque them, that's a huge pain.

 

on subaruxt.com we have the Subaru XT service manuals available for free download. Section 3 is the engine section where the headgasket stuff is. that's EA82 so would be the same for you.

[Deener]

Hey, thanks a bunch grossgary! I alread did a little homework and the FelPro-Permatorque gaskets are the ones I picked up. I also already downloaded the FSM too. This is just my first time pulling the heads off so I want to be 100% sure of everything and be prepared ahead of time...and I trust you guys, you've kept me rolling for a long time.

 

I did the timing belts before so I know I can do it again, I just wasn't sure if I had to or not.

 

Thanks again for everything!

 

Dean

[Caboobaroo]

There's also a small rubber coated metal ring between the cam case and the head on both sides of the engine. Gary might know a place to get them as well but last time I bought some, I got them from www.thepartsbin.com.

 

They're just a couple bucks and I would highly recommend replacing them while you're in there.

[Deener]

Are they the cam carrier O-rings? And is this the part number? 13089AA010

[MilesFox]

you do not have to pull the cams from the cases to install, but you will have to install withthe cams in a neutral position (12:00) so you can tighten them down, and aligning the timing belts will be necessary after the repair.

[Deener]

Cool, thanks Mr Fox. You should have seen the goo that was in the PCV hoses, they were alomst goo'd shut. On that note, since there was such a heavy build up of goopy mayo junk in the oil, would it make sense to run a treatment like seafoam or something through it to clean it out when its all back together?

 

Dean

[Caboobaroo]

If it were me, I'd get it back together with all the new gaskets, put 1/2 a can of Seafoam and 1/2 quart ATF, then some 5w30 oil. Let it run at an idle for about an hour, shut if off and immediatly do an oil change again with a new filter. If its nice and warm plus the additives, it'll help clean everything out of the engine.

[Deener]

Umm...so maybe I need a different thread for this but I managed to snap a head bolt INSIDE the block while putting it all back together. It's the 7th bolt in the tightening sequence. I had the wrench set at 35ft lbs and it didn't even get to there when it snapped...

 

Anyone know where I can I get a new head bolt from (provided I can get the other one out, it snapped BELOW the head of course.) I am thinking that the wrench is garbage or the bolt was no good.

 

Dean

[GeneralDisorder]

Could be a bad wrench - I've seen it. Had a Snap-On torque wrench fail at my last job and it cost the company $20,000.....

 

You can get a new bolt from the dealer or any junk yard - that's no problem.

 

You will likely have to pull the engine to get the old bolt out. Carefully center punch it (and I mean CAREFULY) and hit it with a left-hand drill bit. Might get lucky and spin it right out.

 

You'll need another head gasket for that side.

 

GD

[Deener]

Yeah, I kinda thought that. The remaining/loose piece has a half inch of thread on it and it snapped well into the block, the only saving grace is that it is the easiest of the 9 to access - the one closest to the rad and at the top. I have never pulled an engine out so this will be a first if I can't get a good drill position on it. I am sure there's a ton of info on here about how to get it out, I will search around for it.

 

Thanks and wish me luck.

 

Dean

[thefalsediviner]

Back 20 years ago my Grandpa told me to stay away from the click type torque wrenches and use the beam type instead. He said that although the click type is potentially more accurate it has a higher rate of failure, as in snapping hardware. Sense I always listened to Grandpa, I've never actually used a click style torque wrench. I could be wrong but I've never had any failures with a beam style wrench, while having more than one encounter with a friend with broken hardware from the ball and spring failing to click on speck. Anyhow, extract the broken bolt just like GD says.

 

thefalsediviner

[GeneralDisorder]

Yeah - the beam style are definitely more reliable (and easily calibrated). But the click-type are more accurate. The best of both worlds is the dial indicator style or the new digital units. Those aren't cheap though.

 

GD

[Ionlyhave3suubs]

It is going to be tempting to try the drilling with the engine still in the car, but a word of caution, it is real easy to drill into the the block if you get the angle only slightly off.

[Deener]

Ha ha...yeah I am already dreaming up a way to punch the center of the bolt with something that fits in the hole perfectly...perhaps grind the old bolt to a fine point in its center and using that as a punch, then finding a way to guide the drill in perfectly square using the same principal, working my way up in bit size as I go until theres barely anything left of the bolt and then try and ez out and re-tap it...dunno yet, my idea seems a little sci-fi.

 

I have never pulled an engine and I would need some stuff to do it. Firstly the actual proper steps and then some gear - Dad has some 8x8 beams and I might install one in my garage with a come-along or a winch in place of an engine crane. I don't have much room to work with so I am still kind of exploring my best options. If I could get the block out, I imagine I'd just flip it and get it under the drill press and then swear at it.

 

How much does the block weigh by itself?

[GeneralDisorder]

The block alone is not heavy at all - maybe 75 lbs?

 

You and your dad could easily lift the engine block out with a bit of chain on a 4x4, etc. Should be no problem at all.

 

GD

[NorthWet]

The block alone is not heavy at all - maybe 75 lbs?

 

You and your dad could easily lift the engine block out with a bit of chain on a 4x4, etc. Should be no problem at all.

 

GD

+1 (on pretty much everything GD has told you).

 

The engine is not all that heavy. With the heads off (a little less weight plus cylinders for handholds) I lift and carry mine around by myself. I can even mount it on my engine stand without help. Two capable people should be able to lift one out of the engine bay.

 

Think twice (2 million times???) about using an ez-out. The likely scenario is a broken ez-out and either visiting a machine shop for expensive work or replacing the block. GD suggested left-hand drills for a REALLY good reason. Maybe add a little heat, penetrant oil and b-load of patience.

[idosubaru]

do not use an EZ out. reread the northwets comments on them. they're terrible excuses for a tool.

 

wow, this really stinks you got stuck with this.

 

i'd wing it and try to remove it with the engine in the car. it's a risky proposition though but i wouldn't be too bent on replacing an EA82 if i had to. depending what it looked like i'd get a right angle drill and work on it that way given the location you said it's in. you could unbolt that sides motor mount and probably get the engine to tilt a little bit further up too. you can also get right angle drill attachments to put in any regular drill, but the actual right angle drills are nice.

 

i'd start with the left handed drill bits. drill some then let it set, then drill some more. the heating up/expanding contracting may help it break free. quality left handed drill bits are hard to find but great tools for stuff like this.

 

pulling the motor is the better option, it's just a long one.

[Deener]

Ok, I have learned my lesson about the ez outs. I have snapped one off before and I know I shouldn't use them, I have just never been able to drill a bolt out to the point where it crumbles.

 

You should see the looks I get when I ask around for left handed drill bits! I haven't tried the high end tool manufacturers yet so I am hoping they have them.

 

I picked up a short 'corded' drill. The drill fits in the area with a medium sized bit on it, and I have 3 inches of room to spare. I am going to remove the air box and the purge can bracket to give myself even more room and guage it from there if the engine is coming out or not.

 

So if I undid the two motor mounts and the pitch bar, I could get the engine up a few inches without seperating the bell housing?

[idosubaru]

So if I undid the two motor mounts and the pitch bar, I could get the engine up a few inches without seperating the bell housing?

that's exactly what i was talking about. yes the engine will come "up" a couple inches that way. unbolt the rear trans mount from the car too so the engine can "rock" up while the trans "rocks" down so to speak.

 

sounds to me like you're going to have enough room to pull it off without yanking the motor.

 

yes - quality left handed drill bits are hard to find. i got a set once but they sucked, can't recall where but they didn't last at all. talked to a friend that's a machinist and he said order them online, but that's not very time friendly i realize. if you can start center though they will work.

 

you drill with a small bit first to try and keep it centered. once that's started, move up another size. once you get close to the diameter of the bolt it will spin out, it's awesome. use lots of lubricant and keep the drill bit cool, it'll last much longer.

 

just the heating and cooling alone (metal expands with heating) can help break it loose, that's why i say drill, cool down, drill, cool down. that will give it a chance to spin out while cool and not heated (expanded).

 

good luck - you've had some brutal fortune as of yet.

[Deener]

Thanks Grossgary. Awesome about the rear trans mount. I think I'll have enough clearance just like that. I will get some cutting oil today as well then. I found a couple of local sources for the lefty drill bits - Acklands and Summit Tools which are both on the way home from work. Between 200-250 per full set. I don't think I can aford to dump a couple hundred bucks on drill bits this close to Christmas so I will probably buy a few singles instead.

 

Can anyone comment on what sizes I should get and any particular stiffness/coating? Cobalt..titanium..or?

 

Dean

[idosubaru]

i don't know if there's different grades, but my machinist friend generally told me to stray away from titanium. something about it's just a coating. a high quality carbon steel (i think) bit is what you want.

 

$250 is really high, i saw some like that too. i saw other sets (it's been a year though) for like $70 and $80 too. i can't imagine needing more than two or three tops. measure a bolt - they're 14mm i think or close to that? you'll want one just short of that.

[Deener]

Yeah 14 and smaller sounds about right. I will keep shopping around until I find the good price - it has to be out there.

 

Thanks a million for all of the tips.

 

Dean