2nd Generation 2.5 L Head Gasket Problem?

[86GLScooby]

Hi,

My brother in law and sister has a '05 Impreza RS 2.5L that is using coolant... They drove down from NJ to FL for the holidays and at one point the car overheated and when they checked the engine, the coolant reservour cap was off and it was low on coolant. They filled it up and continued down to FL and now, a couple days later, the coolant level seems to be lowering.

 

Has anyone here seen this problem? I just did a head gasket job on my '97's 2.5L and read up on some of the 2nd generation problems. The fix seems to be an additive added to the coolant. Anyone know if you can try bars or something similar?

 

Thanks

[allwheeldad]

The coolant additive is a product sold by Subaru and is not meant as a fix-it fluid. It is a conditioner designed to ward off the headgasket failure. If this is indeed an HG failure, no coolant additive will solve the problem. Only open heart surgery on the little imp will do the job.

[nipper]

Step 1, what is the mileage on the car.

Step 2. do the simple thing first, replace the cap and see what happens.

[bheinen74]

"coolant reservour cap was off and it was low on coolant"

do you mean overflow bottle cap was off? was it flipped up or was it missing.

I could see it bubbling pressure and popping it off. That could explain it going low, if it is bubbling out and such. You need to open the hood of car after a drive, with it still running and look for volcano coming out of the overlow...

 

report back

 

your symptom relates more to the 96-99 era, not what we see on the 00+

[nipper]

your symptom relates more to the 96-99 era, not what we see on the 00+

 

 

There is always one who is an overacheiver

[idosubaru]

and now, a couple days later, the coolant level seems to be lowering.

they need to find out where the coolant is going. radiator cap, hose, leak somewhere else, etc? if a gallon of antifreeze is gone, it won't take a wizard to figure out where it's going.

 

the headgaskets on these leak externally at the rear head to engine block mating surface, like if you could see through the cabin from the drivers seat - that area. ask them (or someone they know) to look and check the drivers and passengers side in those areas. if it's loosing this much it should be obvious.

 

tell them to keep adding coolant. this engine, unlike your EJ25, will run just fine indefinitely (well for a long time) as long as you keep it full of coolant.

 

this engine REQUIRES subaru coolant conditioner. buy two bottles and use it. add it to the radiator cap, not the coolant reservoir.

 

 

Has anyone here seen this problem?

yes. there are other 05 owners that have had issues or had the headgaskets replaced. but there are 10 other possibilities too.

 

Anyone know if you can try bars or something similar?

Definitely not the Bars, just get the Subaru stuff and use two bottles of it. I believe holt makes the Subaru stuff but I would just use what they recommend and use from the factory.

[zedhead]

The conditioner will do nothing if the gaskets are leaking.

 

More than likely they are.

As a matter of fact, the conditioner is really a stop leak. Not like Bars, or similar. Most, if not all new engines are treated with some type of stop leak from the factory. It's cheap insurance for the manufacturers.

 

They need to keep the coolant level IN THE RADIATOR full. Just filling the expansion tank won't cut it.

 

They could make it home if they keep the rad full. But a HG job is in Their imediate future.

[idosubaru]

The conditioner will do nothing if the gaskets are leaking.

It's worked for others, one of them will likely post to this thread because he's a regular contributor. Newer stuff is rather benign being just the external seeping, it's definitely worth a try. Subaru headgaskets are not a one-size-fits all topic.

[GeneralDisorder]

The conditioner will do nothing if the gaskets are leaking.

 

It is not a "conditioner" - that is a Subaru marketing term. It is Holts Radweld:

 

http://www.holtsauto.com/products/group/repair-and-maintenance/cooling-repair-systems#holts-radweld

 

Rebranded of course - but the "HOLTS" name is still embossed on the bottle .

 

It IS a STOP LEAK product. And it does work. I've seen it work multiple times. My own '99 Forester has 243k on it. I bought the car for $1500 needing (mostly) a radiator and head gaskets. I replaced the radiator and filled with new coolant - at the time of the initial replacement I did not add the "conditioner" - I did not have any on hand and the leak from the head gaskets seemed to be mostly oil weepage.

 

A couple thousand miles later it began leaking an INSANE amount of coolant. Had to fill it every other day to drive it and all around the car you could smell burning coolant as it ran down the exhaust. It would leave a 6" puddle just sitting for an hour after being run.

 

I was pretty much resigned to doing the head gaskets and actually stopped at the dealer to buy all the parts - my parts guy asked if I had tried the "conditioner" in it - I thought "Really?" But he assured me that it's worth a try and upon hearing how much it was leaking sugested that I try using two bottles (this is allowed according to Subaru). It stopped the leaking immediately and COMPLETELY and it has not returned. It has not lost a single drop of coolant in about 9 months of daily driving. It still weeps oil but that's a much slower, easier to ignore problem - doesn't even leak enough to drip. Eventually I will probably do the head gaskets but that specific car is not making me any money so I would rather put it off till I can fit it into my schedule - right now it's not a concern at all. At this point I check the coolant when I change the oil and have yet to add any.

 

The Holts Radweld is chunky - it definitely is a stop leak product. In fact - I've done a number of these phase-II head gaskets now and there is NOTHING left to "condition". The gasket is a single layer of metal and the whole reason it leaks is because the sealant on either side of the gasket has failed and quite literally "washed away" - leaving bare head surfaces and a thin strip of head gasket metal - what the hell would it be conditioning? There simple is nothing left to condition.

 

It is DEFINITELY worth a try. Could buy you years - might not ever have to do them. My parts guy says many times the stop leak cures the problem forever and they never come back.

 

GD

[BigMattyD]

Thanks, y'all. I have had a slow leak from the lower rear area of the driver's side head gasket for a while. It started after I changed the coolant following a timing belt and water pump change. I did not know I had to put the coolant conditioner in it, I did not know my model was affected. I will try out the coolant conditioner and see how it works!!! I would rather not change the head gasket if I can help it.

 

Matt

 

'03 Outback 2.5L

[idosubaru]

BMD - i'd add two bottles if it's already leaking. not sure if it matters but considering the severity of the job i'd do it.

[BigMattyD]

I will add two bottles, and hope it does the trick. I think and hope it will, as it is a very slow leak that seems to come and go depending on the engine temperature. It happens the most at around 3 to 5 minutes after a cold start, especially on cold winter days, then it seems to reduce as the engine warms up. If it doesn't work, I can replace the head gasket.

 

Thanks,

 

Matt

[allwheeldad]

Just re-read my original response. Then read the responses from those who aren't complete retards. Thanks you for properly schooling me on this one, I hate to be the guy giving out bad or unqualified information. I had no idea this "conditioner" was anything more than a preventative maintainence thing.

[nipper]

The additive is just stop leak. I would use Barrs. ONLY use one bottle at a time! Two bottles might (and has to some people) clog the radiator (especially in the future when exposed to air - thats how it works). it can also clog the heater core.

[ShawnW]

It is not a "conditioner" - that is a Subaru marketing term. It is Holts Radweld:

 

http://www.holtsauto.com/products/group/repair-and-maintenance/cooling-repair-systems#holts-radweld

 

Rebranded of course - but the "HOLTS" name is still embossed on the bottle .

 

It IS a STOP LEAK product. And it does work. I've seen it work multiple times. My own '99 Forester has 243k on it. I bought the car for $1500 needing (mostly) a radiator and head gaskets. I replaced the radiator and filled with new coolant - at the time of the initial replacement I did not add the "conditioner" - I did not have any on hand and the leak from the head gaskets seemed to be mostly oil weepage.

 

A couple thousand miles later it began leaking an INSANE amount of coolant. Had to fill it every other day to drive it and all around the car you could smell burning coolant as it ran down the exhaust. It would leave a 6" puddle just sitting for an hour after being run.

 

I was pretty much resigned to doing the head gaskets and actually stopped at the dealer to buy all the parts - my parts guy asked if I had tried the "conditioner" in it - I thought "Really?" But he assured me that it's worth a try and upon hearing how much it was leaking sugested that I try using two bottles (this is allowed according to Subaru). It stopped the leaking immediately and COMPLETELY and it has not returned. It has not lost a single drop of coolant in about 9 months of daily driving. It still weeps oil but that's a much slower, easier to ignore problem - doesn't even leak enough to drip. Eventually I will probably do the head gaskets but that specific car is not making me any money so I would rather put it off till I can fit it into my schedule - right now it's not a concern at all. At this point I check the coolant when I change the oil and have yet to add any.

 

The Holts Radweld is chunky - it definitely is a stop leak product. In fact - I've done a number of these phase-II head gaskets now and there is NOTHING left to "condition". The gasket is a single layer of metal and the whole reason it leaks is because the sealant on either side of the gasket has failed and quite literally "washed away" - leaving bare head surfaces and a thin strip of head gasket metal - what the hell would it be conditioning? There simple is nothing left to condition.

 

It is DEFINITELY worth a try. Could buy you years - might not ever have to do them. My parts guy says many times the stop leak cures the problem forever and they never come back.

 

GD

 

This product needs to be shaken VERY thoroughly before pouring it in. While I agree its chunky it needs to be clarified that its more effective if poured as syrup in nature as possible. Shake for a full minute, add to a cold engine--to the radiator itself not the coolant overflow bottle. As stated its chunky and you don't want it clogging up the hose from the radiator to the overflow bottle.

 

Its intended to be used to prevent not repair head gasket problems. I have of course used it to band aid a customers car until they can afford head gaskets but in the end they are leaking usually.

[Qman]

The additive is just stop leak. I would use Barrs. ONLY use one bottle at a time! Two bottles might (and has to some people) clog the radiator (especially in the future when exposed to air - thats how it works). it can also clog the heater core.

 

I can not believe anyone would say to use stop leak instead of fixing the problem. Especially a Subaru employee. There is a reason there is a leak. Just using stop leak to fix it is irresponsible. Especially if you are selling the vehicle.

 

In the OP's case the slight loss can be managed for a long time. As long as the fluid levels are managed closely no damage will occur. But, If the vehicle overheats then damage can be done.

[nipper]

I can not believe anyone would say to use stop leak instead of fixing the problem. Especially a Subaru employee. There is a reason there is a leak. Just using stop leak to fix it is irresponsible. Especially if you are selling the vehicle.

 

In the OP's case the slight loss can be managed for a long time. As long as the fluid levels are managed closely no damage will occur. But, If the vehicle overheats then damage can be done.

 

 

Do not get me wrong, but when you have a major leak or problem, there is NOTHING wrong with trying a single dose of additive to try to fix it or at least slow it down untill it can be fixed.

 

I will ALWAYS stand by that rule as it is a solid suggestion.

[johnceggleston]

wasn't it subaru who first started suggesting this stuff be put in the cooling system. it sounds like a bandaid to me, but it has obviously proven it's place in these engines. the clog factor scares me, but if it is either that replace the head gaskets i would probably choose the stop leak. but still the possibility of clogging is scary.

 

what i don't understand is how the ''conditioner'' works if it does not start working until it hits the air. does it just flow through the system waiting on a leak?? and if that is the case, doesn't that indicate that subaru assumes the HGs will leak?

[silverhelme]

There is always one who is an overacheiver

 

I guess that includes me and a couple of my friends. My 07 Impreza developed a leak at 35,000 and a couple of friends with an 05 and 06 have had the same problem, although my 06 with 98,000 has not had a single warranty item.

[MilesFox]

I have had good luck with block sealers in subarus with bubbles in the radiator. The most recent example was a 99 outback 2.5 with bubbles, and a can of block sealer got it by to go to texas and back, and is now offered to me as part trade for my camper, and runs well enough to drive as si until i decide to make a project of it to flip, or drive as is, or sell outright to someone that would understand the circumstance9may need a headgasket in the future)

 

Anyway, my point is, the block sealer got this guy to texas and back after only discovering the bubbles just after purchasing the car.

[ssweb]

I have had a leak for quite a while (Close to 100,000 miles, bought the car used with the leak.)

I am looking to do all repairs to the car including a head gasket repair.

 

I am fortunate that I have two very reputable Subaru only repair shops in our area. (Portland ME). Idea is I know the car and spending this is the same for a new used which will probably have the same issues

 

One shop though is suggesting a "Reconditioning" of the head. Cleaned, sent to a machine shop to be resurfaced, pressure checked, valves and or value guide replaced, if needed new value guide seals value clearance adjusted all for a tune of $2200.00 with a timing belt

 

The other shop is suggesting Headgaskets w/all timing belt items. They do not send out to a machine shop. $1600.00

 

I am looking to do a lot of other maintenance work at this time most deferred maintenance

 

Oil Pan 280

Rear Control arm bushings 380

Battery Service w/Holdown 45

Transmission flush w/Filter 180

Front Brakes 300

Rear Brake Service 70

Right Rear sway bar link 65

Headgasket w all timing belt items 1600

Catalyst Converter spacer 95

Rack boots 209

Gate Handle 35

rh trans seal 100

 

Rust Work

left rear door leg 700

right rear quarter 300

 

Total net cost 4359

tax 348.72

grand total 4707.72

 

What is the consensus as to the Head Gaskets? Do I need to recondition the heads?

 

Car Specs; 2000 2.5 AT with 160,000 mile. There is some rust issues starting

I have had a couple of Subaru’s over the years and follow these forums.

 

I appreciate the knowledge and experience that is here.

 

Thank-you

[RAYJAY]

It's worked for others, one of them will likely post to this thread because he's a regular contributor. Newer stuff is rather benign being just the external seeping, it's definitely worth a try. Subaru headgaskets are not a one-size-fits all topic.

 

 

I'm one that the Subaru stuff worked had the drip problem (small drip ) antifreeze smell could not find the leak used 2 bottle and good as al most new ........

 

jeff

[SchwarzeEwigkt]

That stuff is meant for the newer EJ25's that leak externally, right? Not the Phase I's that blow internally? I haven't been running anything but 50% mixed green stuff in my '97.

Edited January 28, 2011 by SchwarzeEwigkt
Herp derp.