Fix or Dump?

[mikekerstetter]

I'm at a crossroads. Do I spend $1800 to fix the head gaskets on my 2000 OBW with 146,000 miles on it or trade it in? I've owned the car for 2 months, so far I've replaced the exhaust from the cat back, replaced the alternator and had the front O2 sensor replaced under a recall. Even after tightening fuel lines under the hood I still have a slight raw fuel smell after starting it when it's really cold. I am pretty sure I have an exhaust leak in the Y pipe or cats somewhere. When I had the O2 sensor replaced I asked the dealer to check out the source of coolant smell, and they said head gaskets were weeping coolant. It's not something that's in desperate need of immediate repair, but I don't know how long it'll be until it starts leaking significant amounts of coolant either.

 

Previous owner said the head gaskets were replaced two years ago and the heads were machined at the same time. Timing Belt was replaced at that time also. He said the tranny was replaced last year with a used one that had 20,000 miles on it. Neither by a Subaru shop.

 

I still owe $3900 on the car, and I can get out of it for about what I owe on it. I'm not sure I want to dump in another $1800 - $2500 to fix all the problems with this car. I'm leery that after I fix this something else will pop up. I can get a 2009 in another make with 20,000 miles and the remainder of the factory 60/60,000 warranty for a few dollars more per month. I like the AWD, but with a short 7 mile commute to work it's not something that's a necessity. I just don't know what to do.

[WRX2FFU]

Why would ir cost $1800 to do head gaskets? Shop price? Do it yourself your not looking at nearly that much.

 

I would not spend 1800 more on it but realistically it can be done for much, much less.

[davebugs]

Why would ir cost $1800 to do head gaskets? Shop price? Do it yourself your not looking at nearly that much.

 

I would not spend 1800 more on it but realistically it can be done for much, much less.

 

Yep.

 

I usually figure about 1k-1,500 including getting the heads done/checked, rad flushed, resealing the engine, New WP, idlers, belts, spark plugs, etc.

 

1,800 for just the HG's - you need to find a different shop. Heck - the dealer may even be cheaper.

 

If you go to sell it outright PM me. I buy cars like that and fix and sell them as a hobby. Haven't done many lately and usually do the DOHC's but a friend is needing one so he doesn't have to plow his driveway to his hilltop home for his GF.

[idosubaru]

You're likely missing an $8 bottle of coolant conditioner. Go to Subaru and buy two bottles of their coolant conditioner. Shake well and dump them in the radiator. There's a chance that will fix your seeping headgaskets.

 

The previous shop probably didn't know that this engine requires, per Subaru, a coolant additive. Better late than never, sometimes it helps, so go do this immediately.

 

Start there and you might feel a lot better about keeping it.

 

Also - you can drive a very, very long time with seeping gaskets on this car. Just keep adding coolant and don't let it get low and it won't overheat or cause any issues.

 

Also - you probably should have stopped by here to ask about the exhaust stuff, there's a chance there's an easy fix for that rather than replace. But too late now.

[Fairtax4me]

An external head gasket leak isn't worth losing any sleep over. Follow what GG says.

[bstone]

Yeah use the coolant conditioner. That might just fix it.

[MilesFox]

Try the conditioner/block seal to see if that will work. Chances are, it will get you by for a while. Perhaps someone here on the massage board would do the work for you if needed.

 

Parts would be about 250 for a complete head gasket set with all the engine seals.

 

I do such work for 500 bucks for the labor, (to pull the motor, do all the seals, and timing belt) and by that rate, you can have it done for less than 1000 by someone who does subarus exclusively, or as a hobby, enthusiasm, what have you.

[mikekerstetter]

You're likely missing an $8 bottle of coolant conditioner. Go to Subaru and buy two bottles of their coolant conditioner. Shake well and dump them in the radiator. There's a chance that will fix your seeping headgaskets.

 

The previous shop probably didn't know that this engine requires, per Subaru, a coolant additive. Better late than never, sometimes it helps, so go do this immediately.

 

Start there and you might feel a lot better about keeping it.

 

Also - you can drive a very, very long time with seeping gaskets on this car. Just keep adding coolant and don't let it get low and it won't overheat or cause any issues.

 

Also - you probably should have stopped by here to ask about the exhaust stuff, there's a chance there's an easy fix for that rather than replace. But too late now.

 

 

 

The guy at the Subaru Dealer who diagnosed the problem gave me the additive to put in it. I did that, and it's still weeping. To my understanding, the head gasket repair from the dealer includes sending the heads out to be milled, valve seals, water pump, and a timing belt. He said basically the same thing as some of you, to keep an eye on it. Said it wasn't anything that needed an emergency repair, and might actually go this way for years. I haven't had the exhaust smell looked at, but I did have the cat back replaced when the muffler fell off, because someone cut the flanges and welded everything together rather than fix it right the first time. It only cost me a little extra to do it right.

 

Honestly, if I hadn't joined the Subaru Outback forum after buying it, or actually found the site looking for the fuel smell problem, I wouldn't have know about the head gasket issue. I've driven quite a few older vehicles where I could smell coolant so that smell by itself wouldn't normally have caused me any concern. It's not dripping coolant, so their is no puddles of any kind on the ground. The problem, for me, is the knowledge or thought that this could fail at any time and leave me stranded somewhere. And the possibility that it's going to be a money pit.

[idosubaru]

The problem, for me, is the knowledge or thought that this could fail at any time and leave me stranded somewhere. And the possibility that it's going to be a money pit.

the good news, if it's good at all, is that these headgaskets won't leave you stranded. they just gradually get worse, but not very fast. i'd get at least a year or two out of it. most blown subaru headgaskets leave you hosed, but not this one with the external leaks.

 

the only odd part is that it's leaking after it was already repaired once? how bizarre, they shouldn't leak once properly repaired. wonder if they used aftermarket gaskets or didn't add the conditioner?

 

FYI - subaru had a 100,000 mile extended headgasket warranty for your engine between 2000-2002.

 

add another bottle of the coolant conditioner.

[nipper]

Gross he is way over that 100K warrenty.

 

1800 somebody is behind on his boat payments.

 

What source for the replacement parts have you used ?

 

The fuel smell I would just replace all the little rubber hoses.

 

The alt, well they get tired.

 

The cat? How was that decided, I woudl have replaced the O2 sensor with an OE one first and see what happened.

[idosubaru]

are you sure both headgaskets were replaced the last time? it's rare but sometimes someone will only replace the leaking one. actually i've heard of dealers telling folks that they will only replace the leaking one under warranty.

 

Gross he is way over that 100K warrenty.

good point that didn't make much sense. my bad, that is why i said FYI, i had something ping-ponging in my head that thought it might be helpful for him to know that.

Edited December 31, 2010 by grossgary

[nipper]

good point that didn't make much sense. my bad, that is why i said FYI, i had something ping-ponging in my head that thought it might be helpful for him to know that.

 

 

So your brain had pre-ignition?

 

and where is my coal!

[mikekerstetter]

Gross he is way over that 100K warrenty.

 

1800 somebody is behind on his boat payments. That is a Subaru Dealer quote

 

What source for the replacement parts have you used ? just the dealer. We do have a shop in the area that specializes in used subaru sales and service and I've used them quite a few times in the past. I just happened to be at the Subaru Dealer for a recall for that front O2 sensor and ECU reflash and asked them to evaluate the coolant smell

 

The fuel smell I would just replace all the little rubber hoses. LOL, that's a LOT of clamps and short hose pieces.

 

The alt, well they get tired. Yeah, that wasn't no big deal, I expect to replace some parts with this many miles

 

The cat? How was that decided, I woudl have replaced the O2 sensor with an OE one first and see what happened. I haven't replaced the cats, just everything behind them. The O2 sensor was replaced with an OE under recall. I think I have an exhaust leak somewhere up front because I can smell some exhaust coming in the vents. I'm not sure that isn't where the smell of the raw fuel isn't coming from on the first cold startup. I guess it would have to be in the Y pipe or cats.

[mikekerstetter]

are you sure both headgaskets were replaced the last time? it's rare but sometimes someone will only replace the leaking one. actually i've heard of dealers telling folks that they will only replace the leaking one under warranty.

 

Well, I'm not positive, but the owner said they did both. And mechanic said both sides are weeping, drivers side rear and passenger side front, where the coolant passages are.

[nipper]

Dealer or not, they all have "boat payments"

 

Find another shop as they are awfully high. Exhaust leak should be fixed because the way subarus are set up, the HVAC will suck it into the car. Most likey it is the flex joint or a gasket. Mine was the flex jont and I had it welded.

[idosubaru]

$1,800 isn't scary high depending on what they're quoting with it. you said that includes valve job, timing belt, water pump, etc. subaru prices are high for parts, so it adds up quick. a detailed list of everything included would be appropriate for comparison. local dealer here charges $1,500 for headgaskets alone....so another $300 sounds about right compared to this dealer (in a subaru saturated market).

 

if it's $1,800 for just the head gaskets then that's way overpriced, but that's not the case here.

 

all a mute point, this motor isn't known to fail or leave you stranded. here's how i'd get as much bang for your buck as possible:

 

dealer charges $700 for a timing belt job.....give this motor a couple more years and then do it all at once. i'd suggest getting an ebay timing belt kit so as to replace all the pulleys and tensioner - getting those individually from subaru is insanely expensive, like over $500 for parts alone. probably have to use a non-dealer (or ask first) to install aftermarket pulleys. no way i'd leave those high mileage and older pulleys on there. they do fail.

 

*** that is, if you're not extending the service interval of the current belt.

 

you might even find after a year or two that coolant usage has not increased or decreased and you'll leave it alone.

 

i would add another bottle of conditioner and plan on driving it 2 years as-is, then do all that maintenance. do that and you might have a fair priced 150,000 reliable miles to go.

[zedhead]

Click HERE> http://allwheeldriveauto.com/subaru-fuel-smell-a-quick-tip/

[mikekerstetter]

Weighed all my options. Decided to trade it in for a 2009 Hyundai with 28,000 miles, the balance of the factory warranty and around $60/month more in payments. In the end it came down to me not having confidence in this particular Subaru. It's too bad, because the car drove smooth. But thanks for everyone's opinions.

[eulogious]

Too bad you gave up on the subaru. I will say this much about the Hyundai, have fun with your throw away car! I have a 2005 kia spectra (re-badge hyundai) with 89,000 on it, and it rattles more than my 1990 Legacy w/151,000 on it, and my wife can't wait to get rid of it for a subaru, and a used one at that because she likes mine so much better than her newer kia! They are good cars to get from point a, to point b, if you want anything more than that, you will probably be sad with it.

 

Either way, good luck, and enjoy the maintenance free hyundai! Hopefully you will be back soon!

[Allpar Mod]

If I were looking for a really cheap car to get from A to B, and lived in the deep south or California, I'd maybe consider the Hyundai or something in a similar vein. Being a fellow Pennsylvanian, and you living in a more mountainous part of the state than I, you may regret your decision. I hope not, but we'll see.

[mikekerstetter]

If I were looking for a really cheap car to get from A to B, and lived in the deep south or California, I'd maybe consider the Hyundai or something in a similar vein. Being a fellow Pennsylvanian, and you living in a more mountainous part of the state than I, you may regret your decision. I hope not, but we'll see.

 

 

I've lived within 4 miles of the place I was born all of my life. I drove rear wheel drive cars and trucks for the first 14 years I was driving. I traded my 1st 4x4 truck on a front wheel drive Ford Escort Wagon two weeks before the blizzard of '93. I drove the 20 miles home from work in that Escort in the height of the blizzard and had no problems at all. I have never stayed home because of a storm. Had to work a bit to get where I was going in that '76 Dodge Dart or the 2wd pickups I drove that were rear wheel drive, but I always got where I was going. The FWD cars, while they're not as good as AWD or a good 4x4, are night and day in comparison to those old RWD cars I started out on. I have no anticipation of not being able to drive the 7 miles to work or any where else I need to go in a snow storm with this FWD Hyundai. Yes, the AWD is better, but it's not essential for me to have.

 

 

Too bad you gave up on the subaru. I will say this much about the Hyundai, have fun with your throw away car! I have a 2005 kia spectra (re-badge hyundai) with 89,000 on it, and it rattles more than my 1990 Legacy w/151,000 on it, and my wife can't wait to get rid of it for a subaru, and a used one at that because she likes mine so much better than her newer kia! They are good cars to get from point a, to point b, if you want anything more than that, you will probably be sad with it.

 

As far as Hyundai being a throw way car, or has rattles and other stuff, I think that's a case of casting stones while living in a glass house. My Outback whistled so loud from the front side windows that you had to almost shout to hold a conversation. And let's not pretend there isn't a huge problem with HG failures that's gone on for years, the poor gas line design that causes the raw fuel smell in the cockpit if you don't tighten all the hose clamps every year before winter or the current 'shake' issue with the 10/11 Outbacks. I'm not knocking Subaru but those are the cold hard facts. It seems Subaru has had it's fair share of problems, so calling another make 'throw away cars' is a bit hypocritical. We owned a Mitsubishi Precis a long time ago, which was a Hyundai Excel rebadged for Mitsubishi. That wasn't a bad car. We had no problems with it. It was reliable and got great gas mileage. I did some research and a lot of the reviews rated the Hyundai very well with other cars of it's price range and class in 2009. The ride on this 2009 is comparable to my Subaru. Of course it's smaller, so it's a bit choppier, but it's not harsh by any means. Let's not forget that the Hyundai/Kia warranty is one of the best in the business. And the fuel mileage of 30mpg vs the 22 in the Subaru is going to be a welcome change, especially with gas prices predicted to rise to $5/gal this summer again. So I'm sure it will do me just fine to get me everywhere I need to go until retirement.

Edited January 6, 2011 by mikekerstetter

[eulogious]

As far as Hyundai being a throw way car, or has rattles and other stuff, I think that's a case of casting stones while living in a glass house. My Outback whistled so loud from the front side windows that you had to almost shout to hold a conversation. And let's not pretend there isn't a huge problem with HG failures that's gone on for years, the poor gas line design that causes the raw fuel smell in the cockpit if you don't tighten all the hose clamps every year before winter or the current 'shake' issue with the 10/11 Outbacks. I'm not knocking Subaru but those are the cold hard facts. It seems Subaru has had it's fair share of problems, so calling another make 'throw away cars' is a bit hypocritical. We owned a Mitsubishi Precis a long time ago, which was a Hyundai Excel rebadged for Mitsubishi. That wasn't a bad car. We had no problems with it. It was reliable and got great gas mileage. I did some research and a lot of the reviews rated the Hyundai very well with other cars of it's price range and class in 2009. The ride on this 2009 is comparable to my Subaru. Of course it's smaller, so it's a bit choppier, but it's not harsh by any means. Let's not forget that the Hyundai/Kia warranty is one of the best in the business. And the fuel mileage of 30mpg vs the 22 in the Subaru is going to be a welcome change, especially with gas prices predicted to rise to $5/gal this summer again. So I'm sure it will do me just fine to get me everywhere I need to go until retirement.

 

I am not being hypocritical at all. I own one. The title will be in my name in the next couple months. So I am WELL aware of what it is like to own one, so everything I said is true and coming from a current kia/hyundai owner.

 

Oh, and don't kid yourself about that warranty, it's really a joke. In my kia, the hvac vents just shut them selves on their own, randomly, for no reason. Heat and AC. So during the winter, the heat just stops working, and during the summer the AC just stops. And when I say stop, I mean NO FLOW. The fan runs, but no air comes out anywhere. This happened at 12k. After taking it to 3 different dealers and wasting about 300 miles on gas, and going several days without a car or using a loaner, we still had the problem. And it was supposed to be covered under the "bumper to bumper 36K" warranty. The dealers never believed my wife and I, and all they did was replace some relays, and this was after me yelling at them do to something about it. What a joke. Still deal with that today. At least the heat works in my Subaru! So if something does go wrong, have fun dealing with the dealers and trying to actual prove there is something wrong. They really don't like to deal with warranty work, and it shows. Oh, and not to mention the shimmy it's had for the last 50K as well. Didn't even try to take it to the dealer for that. What was the point? They would just blame it on the tires and send me on my way

 

And as for it being a throw away car, ya it is. No one cares about them. There are no forums, well good ones that actually have useful information in them and I have looked long and hard trying to solve that damn shimmy. But no one cares. If it breaks, well, just trade it in for a new one. Why bother to fix it? If I wasn't so broke, I would be trading it in for a subaru instead of keeping it, that's for sure. I will just throw it away. It's not special, even my wife says that now, and she used to like it. But after 6 years, she just wants the heat to work, and not to have a shimmy. Luckily we have the subaru so long drives are actually comfortable.

 

And that whistling that you mention is an easy fix, squeeze that part of the window with a pair of pliers and it fixes it. If you searched here you would have found that out because people actually care about fixing their subaru's and share that knowledge, unlike kia owners Oh, and I think that issue was also covered under warranty as well. I am just saying

 

But I will say that we have had no mechanical issues at all with the kia, so I can't fault it for that. It has gotten my wife around safely for 6 years, so what more could I ask from it? I even drove it for a while before I got my subaru because my other car had some major issues, and it's not a bad car at all. It goes from point a to point b just fine while getting 30mpg and just changing the oil. Am I impressed by it, no. Would I buy one again, probably not. Would I recommend them to people, depends on the persons wants/needs. Am I going to install $1K worth of stereo stuff in it and keep it past 100K and do the proper maintenance on it to keep it running good, yes. But will I toss it like yesterdays garbage as soon as I get the chance? Hell yes, because that's all it was made for! My subaru will see many, many, many more miles than that kia will, why? Because it's a better car, and not designed as a throw away car. I can tell just by taking the car apart. The kia feels "cheap" compared to my subaru when it's tore down, and my subaru 20 years old! The subaru just has better quality parts in it. More metal, less plastic, easier to take apart, more sound proofing, seats are more comfortable, and I could go on and on. Again, nothing wrong with the kia, it's just not made to last, it's designed as a throw away car, and it shows when the car is tore down. But it still goes from point a to point b just fine

 

Like I said early, the hyundai will give you years of trouble free service, so enjoy it! The most important part is that you enjoy the car you buy, and it sounds like you do, so that's all that really matters Good luck with the car, and hopefully it will treat you well!

Edited January 6, 2011 by eulogious

[nipper]

The otherhalf has bought a hyndai SUV thingy new. I hang my head in shame whenever I get in it. It has more room then his 1998 CRV (old gal had 260,000 miles when traded in, repairs cost more then a new car).

 

Odd thing is Blu at 270,000 miles aside from the bad rack and exhaust hanger rides just as well and has more power.

 

At least for now B;u doesnt have to take those long fast raodtrips to Cjicago anymore.

[mikekerstetter]

I am not being hypocritical at all. I own one. The title will be in my name in the next couple months. So I am WELL aware of what it is like to own one, so everything I said is true and coming from a current kia/hyundai owner. Oh, and don't kid yourself about that warranty, it's really a joke. .....if something does go wrong, have fun dealing with the dealers and trying to actual prove there is something wrong. They really don't like to deal with warranty work, and it shows. Oh, and not to mention the shimmy it's had for the last 50K as well.

 

So, what was Subaru's remedy for the shakes? Oh, that's right, they haven't come up with one yet.

 

In my kia, the hvac vents just shut them selves on their own, randomly, for no reason. Heat and AC. So during the winter, the heat just stops working, and during the summer the AC just stops. And when I say stop, I mean NO FLOW. The fan runs, but no air comes out anywhere. This happened at 12k. After taking it to 3 different dealers and wasting about 300 miles on gas, and going several days without a car or using a loaner, we still had the problem. And it was supposed to be covered under the "bumper to bumper 36K" warranty. The dealers never believed my wife and I, and all they did was replace some relays, and this was after me yelling at them do to something about it. What a joke. Still deal with that today. At least the heat works in my Subaru!

 

Again I find it odd that you can say that with a straight face knowing that Subaru has no idea what is causing a well documented problem with its Outbacks. Apparently the dealers you took it to couldn't duplicate the problem. Subaru knows of the problem and can't find a cause.

 

And as for it being a throw away car, ya it is. Why bother to fix it? If I wasn't so broke, I would be trading it in for a subaru instead of keeping it, that's for sure.

 

Broke because you keep fixing your Subaru? LOL My 2 '89's leaked oil like crazy, not to mention they rusted severely. (Although you'd think the oil would have prevented them from rusting. Didn't happen though)

 

But I will say that we have had no mechanical issues at all with the kia, so I can't fault it for that. It has gotten my wife around safely for 6 years, so what more could I ask from it? I even drove it for a while before I got my subaru because my other car had some major issues, and it's not a bad car at all. It goes from point a to point b just fine while getting 30mpg and just changing the oil.

 

Really, no mechanical issues for 6 years, gets great gas mileage, but it's a throw away car. Interesting.

 

Am I impressed by it, no. Would I buy one again, probably not. Would I recommend them to people, depends on the persons wants/needs. Am I going to install $1K worth of stereo stuff in it and keep it past 100K and do the proper maintenance on it to keep it running good, yes. But will I toss it like yesterdays garbage as soon as I get the chance? Hell yes, because that's all it was made for!

 

Equally as interesting.

 

 

My subaru will see many, many, many more miles than that kia will, why? Because it's a better car, and not designed as a throw away car. I can tell just by taking the car apart. The kia feels "cheap" compared to my subaru when it's tore down, and my subaru 20 years old! The subaru just has better quality parts in it. More metal, less plastic, easier to take apart, more sound proofing, seats are more comfortable, and I could go on and on.

 

Your 90 Legacy is not the 2000 OBW that I was driving. It wasn't the 1st or 2nd generation 2.5 with all of it's HG problems. HG's shouldn't fail under 100,000 miles. They should realistically last well past 100,000 miles, pushing the 200,000 mile mark. The gen 1 and 2 were failing sometimes at 30,000 miles. Mine were fixed two years ago, and were failing again. Subaru has everyone dumping stop leak in the radiator as their solution to that problem. What about the fuel line problem that was never addressed? Again, my 2 '89' GL10's, '91 legacy wagon, and '95 Impreza all leaked oil. I've seen post after post on the P0420 CEL problem on many Subarus. Quality my arse. These pages and the pages of various other Subaru forums are jammed full of broken Subaru repair questions.

 

Again, nothing wrong with the kia, it's just not made to last, it's designed as a throw away car, and it shows when the car is tore down. But it still goes from point a to point b just fine Like I said early, the hyundai will give you years of trouble free service, so enjoy it! The most important part is that you enjoy the car you buy, and it sounds like you do, so that's all that really matters Good luck with the car, and hopefully it will treat you well!

 

I'm a fan of Subaru. I've enjoyed every one of them, except for this one. Fuel smell, coolant smell, bad alternator, replaced the exhaust from the cat back, replaced the O2 sensor and STILL have the CEL on constantly. I've put $750 in this car in 2 months since I bought it with the prospect of putting $1800 to $2500 more into it to repair current problems (still have an exhaust leak somewhere up front). What is going to need repaired next? How much money does one sink into a car that is seemingly falling apart? I'm glad you like your Subaru. I've liked my previous Subaru's. But I'm not naive enough to claim that Subaru is 'quality' above all other manufacturers. The track record indicates otherwise.

[eulogious]

Once you drive and own non throw away car, you will understand. Obviously you have yet to do so, or you would be agreeing with me Been there, done that, and you haven't, so really you can't say whether or not the hyundai is better. I can. Its not. I have owned both types cars for several years and can say that with confidence. You on the other hand have not, so you can not say otherwise, well at least you can't with authority. You can say all you want, but it doesn't mean much

 

Have fun man, or not... I am done here