'99 Subaru Legacy Outback, Overheating problem caused by repair shop.

[jporter313]

This is my first time posting here.

 

I have a '99 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon with roughly 160k-170k miles on it.

 

I say roughly because the speedometer started dropping out intermittently about a year ago and we haven't wanted to put the $600 into getting the speed sensor replaced to find out whether or not that's the issue.

 

Anyway, on to my main concern. The car has had a small oil leak from the valve cover gaskets for a while now. We knew about this, but I just checked the oil occasionally to make sure it hadn't gotten too low and went on about my business.

 

A couple months ago, I checked the oil and the dipstick came out dry, this scared me, but I added a quart of oil and it was fine again. checked it again a month or so later, and same thing. The weird thing about this is that there was no oil on the pavement in our parking spot and it seems to take very little oil to get it back to the right level.

 

I finally got a chance to take it in to get this checked out and get an oil change a couple weeks ago before we left to go on our yearly Christmas trip up to Oregon.

 

Upon looking at the car, the shop we've been taking it to for the last few years said that there was a large amount of oil leaking from the Valve cover gasket as well as the timing belt assembly and camshaft seal. They said they needed to lift the engine out of the car to fix this which requires a large amount of labor. We also had a torn boot on our left front axle which was a part of the original quote (but inexplicably wasn't in the final quote and didn't end up getting done). The total estimate for parts and labor was around $1800. I asked them if this was something I could put off until after our trip and they said no. I told them I needed to think about it and that I'd get back to them as soon as possible.

 

Unfortunately we were really pressed for time as we were scheduled to leave for Oregon in 3 days. We discussed whether we wanted to buy a new car or try to fix this one and hold onto it for another year or two. It was tough, but we decided that it was better to try to keep driving this car for a while than to invest a much larger amount of money in a new one, and we didn't want to have to search for a new car under such a tight deadline.

 

We told them to do the work, and they came back with a quote for $2355 that also included a lot of things they said were important to do while the engine was out to save labor (water pump, transmission seal, etc.). I reluctantly told them to go ahead and do the work.

 

Fast forward to 3 days later. I go in to pick up the car and they're not quite done with it yet. after several conversations, some other minor unsettling realizations, and them checking out the car for several hours, they tell me they need to put in a new thermostat, but they'll do it for free. They do this and I take the car.

 

I get the car home and start packing up to leave for our drive to Oregon. a couple hours later, I come down to the car and see a stream of thick red fluid coming out from under the car. I call the shop and they say it's probably transmission fluid. I take it in and they realize that it's actually power steering fluid. At some point during or immediately after the work, one of the power steering hoses had broken causing the fluid to drain out. They can't get the part before I need to leave, so they devise a temporary fix, however as I drive off , the power steering stops working again. They try a bunch of things to fix it, but nothing works. Eventually they say it's probably just air in the system and that it should work itself out after 50 or so miles of driving.

 

I take the car again and leave for Oregon with no power steering (The power steering problem never works itself out and is still broken today). Otherwise everything's fine until I get to around Mt Shasta and realize that my car is overheated. In the 7 years that I've been driving this car, I have never seen The temperature gauge budge from just below the center while the car is heated up. I pull off to the side of the road and turn off the car. Add some water to the radiator and try to make it the rest of the way.

 

Pretty quickly the car overheats again and I have to pull over and have it towed to a nearby shop. They take a look at it and tell me that someone has installed a bleed valve on one of the radiator hoses that doesn't have a gasket and coolant is leaking out of it. They fix this, do a chemical block test to make sure I haven't blown a head gasket, top off the coolant and send me on my way after charging me $130.

 

Second leg of the trip is Medford to Portland, I get about 2 thirds of the way there and realize that when I'm off the freeway, the car keeps running very hot, but not all the way to the line. once I arrive in Portland, I pop the hood and see that there's coolant all over the engine around the radiator overflow tank and the hose that goes from just below the radiator cap to the overflow tank has popped off the radiator. Upon closer inspection I see that there is a cap on the nipple where that hose should go. It appears that at some point during the repairs, someone put a cap on this and then stuck the hose back on over it.

 

I have a family friend who is an ASE certified Subaru tech. He takes a quick look at the car, removes the cap and tells me that I need to take it in to a subaru dealership to have them figure out the rest of the problem.

 

I follow his advice and they realize that the fan temperature sensor is not working correctly, causing the radiator fan to turn on prematurely which they said can cause the engine to overheat. I pay $230 for them to fix this and do another chemical block test. Upon completion, they also point out that THERES OIL LEAKING FROM THE VALVE COVER GASKETS! Let me point out that a week earlier I had paid the local shop several hundred dollars to fix this. They also point out several other things that haven't been reassembled properly (the timing belt cover is missing a seal, several bolts are in the wrong place, etc.), but nothing that they say isn't going to allow me to get back to San Francisco.

 

I take off to travel back to San Francisco, during the drive the temperature sensor is acting erratically and finally it overheats again around Mt. Shasta. Upon popping the hood, I can see that coolant has sprayed over the engine from around the overflow tank cap.

 

I take it in to the same shop in Shasta and ask them if it might be a problem with the Thermostat. They say it could either be this or the water pump, or the head gaskets might be blown despite the 2 passed chemical block tests. Being the cheapest option, I ask them to replace the thermostat for another $100. I also ask what the normal range for the temperature to be in on that gauge is and they say anything between a half and three quarters is ok. They also point out that there is a small amount of what looks like it could be exhaust residue on the week old thermostat, which they say could indicate a head gasket problem. After this I continue on my way back to San Francisco, the temperature gauge goes up and down, but never gets quite above the three quarter mark he specified. I figure this could be because the car is fixed, or it could be because most of the trip was downhill from that point.

 

My questions are:

 

Should I worry about the fact that that gauge was more or less static while driving before and now fluctuates quite a bit even though it's within safe limits?

 

Is it safe to assume that the local shop broke something that's causing this overheating problem while they were working on my car. If so, what could it be?

 

Assuming this is the fault of the local shop, what recourse do I have considering they caused a problem that cost me almost an extra $500 after I had already paid them a couple thousand to work on my car and might have caused a blown a head gasket?

 

What is the likelihood that the head gasket is blown despite the passed chemical block tests?

 

I'm really afraid that they broke more stuff than is immediately apparent, Should I let them work on my car again, to fix the shoddy work they did in the first place?

 

Considering I just put $3000 into it and more stuff seems to be broken now than was before, should I keep the car or ditch it, get a new one, and eat the loss?

 

What's the likelihood of getting any money back from the shop?

 

I really don't want this thing to become a big money pit.

 

I know this is quite a saga. I'd really appreciate any advice or ideas. It was really a financial stretch to do that much work on the car in the first place, especially around the holidays. I feel pretty ripped off by this whole thing.

 

Thanks in advance.

[lmdew]

Take your bills into the Shop Owner and sit down with them. If it's a quality shop, they will take care of it.

 

You may have had a air bubble in the coolant system from improper bleeding.

 

The down side is now you have overheated the engine for a significant period of time. The HG are damaged and you may have damaged the bottom end bearings as well. Subaru engines do not like this.

 

If it was me, I'd drop a 95 2.2 moto in and keep on going. PS don't have that shop do the work.

[Rooster2]

You have a higher threshold of anger then I have. I would be plenty mad at the first shop for the mess they have caused you. It seems to me that their poor work has caused multiple issues. As Imdew pointed out, take all your receipts from them and from second shop, and have a strong sit down discussion with the shop owner. Tell him what you have told us, and point the finger (be sure to use only your index finger, not the middle one) at him, that his shop has caused all your problems. Ask him how he is going to make things right. It may call for a replacement engine due to repeated over heating. Threaten legal action if need be. My favorite line is " I would hate to take you to court over this, but will do so, if we can't resolve this problem".

 

I applaud that you were wanting to get your car into the best mechanical shape before taking a long trip, however, I think you waited to the last minute to get the work done. If the work had been done earlier, a series of short around town trips would have brought to light all the problems you encountered before you started the long trip. It is not a good idea to start a big trip right after major work has been completed without field testing the car first, but this hind sight doesn't help you now.

 

Keep us posted on your progress on getting your car repaired. A lot of people on this forum care about Subarus, and want to help owners get the best service from their cars. Welcome to this forum.

[Fairtax4me]

Welcome to the USMB.

 

It sounds like your local shop isn't a Subaru specific shop. Or they would have known that you just can't use an after market thermostat in a Subaru. It has to come from a dealer, any else is just not going to work properly.

The engine doesn't have to be removed to change the valve cover gaskets, and all of the seals in the timing belt area are easily accessible with the engine still in the car.

 

Thermostat and an improper bleeding of the cooling system will lead to overheating. Unfortunately, as was mentioned earlier, overheating is very bad for the 2.5 engine. It's like a snowball effect after that. You mildly overheat it once, that's fine. Twice is pushing it. The head gaskets will be compromised, which leads to more overheating, and eventually to rod bearing damage.

 

There is no real way to tell if the head gaskets have been damaged until they start leaking. But if they are leaking, it will show up in a block test.

 

Bearing damage can be determined by an Engine Oil Analysis Test. A sample of oil is captured during draining and is sent in to a lab where they can determine if there is excessive copper in the oil, which would indicate bearing wear.

 

But, all of this is directly related to the work the first shop did. Had they known what they were doing this could have all been avoided.

 

I'd be having a firm conversation with the manager and the owner of that shop ASAP, asking why the valve cover gaskets you just paid to have changed are still leaking. I'd also be pressing the issue of the potential damage done to the engine. Not for a new engine though. I'd be wanting back every penny of what was paid to them for the work. If they won't co-operate, I'm sure the Better Business Bureau would be happy to file a report about this. And a nice "thank you" letter from your lawyer might help get you some leverage.

 

What they did to your power steering, I have no idea. I wouldn't have driven the car that way. And the fact that they even let you leave with the car in that condition doesn't sit well with me.

 

I only wish you had found the site before all this. Plenty of honest and knowledgeable members on the board here along the west coast who could have done the work for much less $$ and you wouldn't have any problems afterwards.

[GeneralDisorder]

1. The head gaskets are blown. Just assume that.

 

2. If the oil wasn't changed after each overheat - you have probably baked the bottom end. Just assume the engine is a total loss. It's "parts" now or soon will be.

 

3. These engines are notorious for this and chemical tests are often wrong for a variety of reasons.

 

4. Even if you fix the head gaskets there is a higher-than-normal probability of internal block failure within the next 10k to 50k miles. Again - engine is toast - find another one.

 

Aditionally:

 

1. The first shops is a pile of morons - you don't EVER replace a water pump and *not* a thermostat on a Subaru. The thermostat is IN the water pump and once removed there is a high probability of failure because they are thin gauge sheet metal and prone to binding (sticking closed). They are also about $12 so there's not reason to use the old one.

 

2. They also ripped you off - the engine does not have to be removed for the valve cover gasket replacement. That's absolutely silly.

 

3. The best recourse for you is to find a reputable Subaru shop and have them install a good used '95 to '98 EJ22 w/EGR (from an automatic). The engine you have IS a money pit at this point and is questionable from lots of cooks in the kitchen and too much overheating. It is also an expensive engine to maintain and repair. Dump it and get the vastly more reliable and cheaper to maintain EJ22. You will lose about 30 HP but it's worth it for the reliable engine.

 

If you want to take another trip to Oregon - I can put an EJ22 in it for about $1200 - that's complete with all new seals, gaskets, hoses, etc and with a warantee on the work and on the motor. . I've done quite a few of these.

 

GD

Edited January 1, 2011 by GeneralDisorder

[zedhead]

How can You condemn an engine so quickly?? There's no proof of internal damage. Just the possibility.

 

Personally, I'd take the bill to the shop, and as stated, go over it with the Owner. They have failed to complete Their end of the deal.

[Fairtax4me]

How can You condemn an engine so quickly?? There's no proof of internal damage. Just the possibility.

 

Personally, I'd take the bill to the shop, and as stated, go over it with the Owner. They have failed to complete Their end of the deal.

 

Statistics. Overheating means certain death for the EJ25. The possibility of damage is more certain than the possibility of no damage. It's a complete waste to pay money to have the head gaskets replaced, then have it toss a rod through the case in 500 miles.

[jporter313]

Thanks to everyone for the help so far.

 

I'm calling the shop tomorrow, I'll let you all know what the result is.

[idosubaru]

What a mess. Your initial thoughts to put money into the car were valid. A properly done timing belt job and reseal (valve covers, cam, oil pump, crank, etc) is easily done for $1,500 and would have gained you another 100,000 miles.

 

The engine DOES NOT ever get removed for a timing belt or valve cover job on these, right there tells you they don't know what they're doing.

 

This engine needs properly bled, any air in the system will cause it to overheat.

 

Make sure there's no leaks at all and no air in the coolant before assuming the headgaskets are toast.

 

A lot went wrong here and it's hard to follow that long story, but there's no way all of that stuff went wrong at the same time/after. Someone didnt' know what they were doing or hosed the engine.

[Allpar Mod]

Sorry to hear about the tribulations you went through. I have the same year OBW.

 

First, I have to agree with the statement that you waited too long to have the original work done. Having it done last minute gave them an excuse, albeit not a good one, to say that it's your fault they rushed the job. Don't buy that. If they couldn't do it properly in the time frame you gave them, they never should have agreed to start on it.

 

Unfortunately, I have to say that a complete close look at the engine is in order to verify that the engine needs replacement, and by someone that is good with Subaru engines. Odds are that the guys are right, it's time to look for another motor. With the beating due to malfunctions that your engine sustained on the trip, I'd say that most any engine would be hard pressed to survive relatively intact. The EJ25 is just a more susceptable engine to meltdown than some others.

 

I don't know how strong your consumer protection laws and agencies are in Cali, but I suspect you might have to go that route in the end. Ours are very strong here, but they seem to vary state to state. I hope you have good documentation from the other shops that serviced the car during the trip.

 

Best of luck.

[thatswhatshesaid]

I would count on the 2.5 being a complete loss. As others have said, 'once overheated, twice shy' is the rule for these motors.

[johnceggleston]

I would count on the 2.5 being a complete loss.

 

i would agree with what others have said, but i doubt that the shop owner will. i would be surprised if he / they acknowledge any fault at all. so you will have to ''convince" them.

 

i think i would start with ''give me my money back and pay to have my engine repaired by the dealer''. and then introduce them to the BBB and a lawyer. and if you have to park out front of the shop with a sign saying they do bad work and cheat the customer.

 

i would settle for getting your money back. you can use that to make a good running car to keep or sell.

[bstone]

Having been the customer service liaison for a garage and regularly dealing with the BBB I can say that this avenue is a waste of time. The lawyer, however, is not. The worst that the BBB can do is give the garage a lower rating, but that's all. A lawyer can send a threatening letter and then initiate a lawsuit, but then you have to pay the lawyer. The solution? Small Claims Court. It's meant for this sort of thing (claims under $10,000, usually). They usually have mediation available in Small Claims Court but it's optional and voluntary.

 

We have given money back to customers who had both good and bad claims and always avoided lawyers and small claims court in favor of settling.

 

In your case you'll need a written estimate from a dealer or Subaru specialized shop saying the problems, cause and estimate for repairs. Bring this to the owner/manager of the garage that did the botched repairs and see what they say. If that doesn't work then initiate a small claim lawsuit.

 

Please keep us updated.

[thatswhatshesaid]

Having been the customer service liaison for a garage and regularly dealing with the BBB I can say that this avenue is a waste of time. The lawyer, however, is not. The worst that the BBB can do is give the garage a lower rating, but that's all. A lawyer can send a threatening letter and then initiate a lawsuit, but then you have to pay the lawyer. The solution? Small Claims Court. It's meant for this sort of thing (claims under $10,000, usually). They usually have mediation available in Small Claims Court but it's optional and voluntary.

 

We have given money back to customers who had both good and bad claims and always avoided lawyers and small claims court in favor of settling.

 

In your case you'll need a written estimate from a dealer or Subaru specialized shop saying the problems, cause and estimate for repairs. Bring this to the owner/manager of the garage that did the botched repairs and see what they say. If that doesn't work then initiate a small claim lawsuit.

 

Please keep us updated.

 

For sure. If you involve an attorney (even just to scare them), you'll end up paying him a lot (potentially more than the value of the car repairs) to get you a little.

[bstone]

For sure. If you involve an attorney (even just to scare them), you'll end up paying him a lot (potentially more than the value of the car repairs) to get you a little.

 

Which is why Small Claims Court is ideal.

[thatswhatshesaid]

Agreed. While I have no personal experience with small claims court, I have a friend who had a similar experience with a mechanic. Rather than go to the hassle of court proceedings, the shop and car owner came to an agreement and the shop took care of the screw-up. Court is a PITA and no sane business owner wants to mess with it.

[johnceggleston]

Which is why Small Claims Court is ideal.

 

true, but standing out front with a sign may be the stick that gets their attention.

some one posted recently that they got no where until they started picketing the on the sidewalk. small businesses can't afford to have customers, old or new, turn around and walk away.

 

''protesting'' on the sidewalk will not scare off all customers, but it willl make a lot of them think twice.

 

repair shops tend to have a bad reputation any way, regardless of how honest they are. kind of like home improvement contractors. at least until the customer has had a good experience.

 

maybe park you car out front with signs in the window if you don't have the time to do it yourself. but nothing is better than a complaining customer out front.

 

and one more thing, if and/or when they talk to you, get everything in writing and signed. that way they can't back out.

[bstone]

Just be careful to not picket on the garage's property. We had a woman do that this summer. We asked her to leave 10 times and she didn't, so we called the police. They ticked her for trespassing.

[lmdew]

I work on Subaru mostly because I like it. I fix a few and sell them. I tell the people if they have a question or problem to let me know and I'll take care of it. If you have done quality work, that should not be a problem.

 

I had one fellow call me back 6-8 months after I sold him a 96 Impreza with 200K on it tell me it was using Oil. OK, the wife had driven that car for a year with no problems. I suggested he look for leaks and I doubted it was using the oil. I offered to take a look, but he never brought it back. I didn't hear from him for another 4 Months.

 

Then he called me and told me the engine had thrown a rod. Now this was almost a year after I sold him a used car with 200K on it. I still offered to change the engine for $200 if he found a good used engine.

 

I did that and he was once again happy with his Subaru.

 

I lost some time, but I always try to ensure folks are happy with their Subarus.

[jporter313]

Just wanted to give everyone an update. I called the shop a few days ago and explained the situation to them. The front desk person was really courteous, said they were very sorry and gave me the number of the manager who handles those requests.

 

The next morning I got a voice message from him offering to take a look at the car and fix whatever's wrong with it at no charge. I feel like I'm a pretty reasonable guy, and it's tempting to let them try to fix their mistake, but I'm really afraid based on the last month or so, that we're going to do that and they're going to screw up more stuff. What do you all think?

 

Also, what do you think is a reasonable and realistic figure to ask them for? I spent $2350 there for the initial "fixes", then it cost me another $500 at various shops to keep my car from dying while in Oregon. One of the legal people at my girlfriends work, suggested that we ask for a full refund plus the $500 plus the blue book value of the car. This sounds a little excessive to me, and I don't understand how you'd justify that legally, but I'm wondering if (based on what I've heard here) it would make sense to ask for a refund, plus the $500 plus the cost of parts and labor for a new engine?

 

I would guess I wouldn't come out of it with that actual figure, but it would give me a high starting point for a settlement. Can anyone here suggest a reasonable figure?

[bstone]

The only settlement I would come to with these folks is completely refunding the labor for their screw up and the cost of the other shops to repair. Tell them you're willing to forgo the parts.

[GeneralDisorder]

If you *do* ask for all the money + the 500 + the blue book..... get a lawyer. I doubt they will think you serious if you don't.

 

I would explain to him that you are not confident in their work, nor are you confident in the logevity of the current engine due to the damages they caused.

 

I would ask for a replacement engine - similar condition to what you had prior to the "incident" - with a warantee, and installation by a shop of your choosing.

 

GD

[jporter313]

Thanks all. I'm not trying to lawyer up if I don't have to considering that'll have it's own costs involved with no guarantee of more return.

 

bstone, I'm wondering if that's really an equitable settlement considering that the damage they caused to my car will likely cost more to fix than I'd be getting back in that scenario. Would it make more sense to just get a quote for a complete engine replacement and ask them for that instead of a refund of any sort?

 

It looks like a new(er) ej25 (or 25d, is there a way to tell whether it's DOHC without taking anything apart?) would cost somewhere around $1000, what would you guess the labor to replace it at a shop would be in or around SF?

 

On a side note, it looks like you can get a newer transmission along with the engine for a few hundred bucks. Approximately what would the added labor cost be to replace the transmission if I had the engine replaced?

 

I'm thinking my next step is to talk to a different shop and see if they can examine my engine to diagnose any problems it might be having because of this work so I have something on paper to bring to the original shop. How much should I expect to pay for this sort of diagnostic?

 

Thanks again for everyone's help so far. This board has been a really excellent resource.

[jporter313]

Hey GeneralDisorder, I re-read your post and now see that you suggested what I was just asking about the replacement.

[Fairtax4me]

Ask them to pay for a Subaru dealer or independent Subaru shop to install a used or rebuilt engine.

 

I'm thinking my next step is to talk to a different shop and see if they can examine my engine to diagnose any problems it might be having because of this work so I have something on paper to bring to the original shop. How much should I expect to pay for this sort of diagnostic?

Again a dealer or independent Subaru shop should be the most knowledgeable here. They can more than likely track down the source of the power steering problem as well.

Is there a problem with the transmission now? I know you said they replaced a seal.