2.5 dohc the engine I love to hate and love again

[Ionlyhave3suubs]

Allright, first of all I love my Subarus and all 3 of my Legacy series have had 2.5 engines in them. 3 have been the dohc 2.5d and I also now have a 02 sohc 2.5.

 

My first legacy (still have, and the one that is giving me a fit) is a 97 obw with AT. Most of my nearly 190k miles I have put on it since I bought it (used in 99) have been relatively trouble free, until recently.

 

Finally at just a bit under 230k miles the original head gaskets finally gave out. I stopped driving it when that happened. I had just bought my 96 Legacy LSi (knowing it had bad head gaskets) and fixed that along with a few other things. I recently got around to doing the head gaskets on the 97 but I fear I may have skipped an essential step (or so).

 

I did not get the heads professionally checked for warpage. I know the engine and know it was never allowed to get very hot, so I didn't think it was necessary. That is a possible problem.

 

I used fel-pro gaskets when I did the job. I felt confident these were suitable since I used them on the 96 LSi with no issues, no leaks.

 

When I re-assembled the heads to the engine block, I left out the step of oiling the head bolts before torquing them.

 

I used the spray copper gasket sealer on the head gaskets and head and block mating surfaces. I used this also on the 96 LSi and no issues.

 

All of that being said, the car runs ok and is not overheating. The only symptom of a sealing problem is what appears to be an external coolant leak that appears to be coming from the rear of the passenger side head to block seam (head gasket area). It manifests as a steam that appears to be coming out from the head gasket area.

 

I am wondering if it is possible to re-torque the head bolts while the engine is still in the car. I know it is tight, the cams have to come off etc., but is it possible?

 

Is it possible that I could solve the problem by re-torquing the bolts, as in taking the tension off all of the bolts on that side, removing the bolts one at a time, oiling them then putting them back in and torquing them to the proper specs?

 

The body on the car is pretty good still. A few minor dents and dings but not rusty. The driveline is starting to really concern me though. In parking lots it pops and "crabs" in tight turns. I am suspecting a rear differential and/or a front to rear differential problem. I'm getting to the point that I am getting fed up with working on the 97 so much and wondering if it is worth fixing (or trying to fix). I am just not ready to pull the engine out again to mess with the high mileage engine that may have a failing drivetrain behind it.

 

I am not interested in doing a 2.2 swap at this time unless someone has a really cheap good one within driving distance to Roanoke, VA.

 

I would consider building a frankenmotor for this car, but would need a good pair of egr compatible heads from a 2.2. Frankenmotor would need to be a project for later due to funds and the need to get my son's Celica going for him.

 

Ideas, suggestions, encouragement?

All 3 are welcome.

[ericem]

I suggest buying oem headgaskets, and doing the job in the car this time. You can not retorque the bolts. I wouldn't think it would be a huge deal not oiling the bolts as I do not think it is necessary but I would definitely do it and I myself have done it!

[Ionlyhave3suubs]

Oh, I forgot to mention, I have already put in 2 containers of the Subaru head gasket conditioner/sealer. Didn't do the trick.

[WoodsWagon]

Multi-layer steel headgaskets are meant to go on dry, the copper spray may have made the problem worse.

 

I'd pull it back out and do the job right with the Subaru gaskets.

[Ionlyhave3suubs]

Does anyone else use the copper spray. I read somewhere that it was necessary for a proper seal, can't remember where now.

[rxleone]

Does anyone else use the copper spray. I read somewhere that it was necessary for a proper seal, can't remember where now.

 

Probably read it was UNnecessary. I'd put money on that being the problem. Subaru head gaskets go on dry, no exceptions.

[Fairtax4me]

QUOTE]I used the spray copper gasket sealer on the head gaskets and head and block mating surfaces. I used this also on the 96 LSi and no issues.

This is your biggest booboo.

Nevvvver ever ever ever use ANY kind of sealer on modern head gaskets.

 

Felpro gaskets are a shot in the dark. Sometimes they work flawlessly, other times they fail in only a few hundred miles.

 

Not overheated, and with the bolts removed in proper sequence, the heads may not be warped beyond specification and can be reused without machining. After being removed, torqued, removed again, they will need machining.

 

Subaru or equivalent MLS head gaskets are the only sure way to get a proper seal. These have a thin layer of sealer already applied in the manufacturing process. Nothing extra is required for these style gaskets. Just torque to factory spec.

 

It can be fixed, just takes some patience, and a little more money. :-\

Oh, and you're not the first person to make these kind of mistakes. Plenty of others have learned the hard way as well, seem like most of us have to learn the hard way so others can read about it on internet forums.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Fairtax4me

[GeneralDisorder]

Why not just find a low-mileage EJ22 for it? Simple swap. At 230k and an overheat or 10..... it could be close to end-of-life anyway. The EJ25D doesn't take overheating and the bottom end will likely fail sooner than you think - soon enough that it doesn't justify the labor of the HG job.

 

The torque bind around turns is common of the 4EAT automatic - just flush the fluid a couple times (change, drive, change, drive). Should cure most of it and if not there's a few additives that can do it also. Not a deal killer - the 4EAT is a rugged and reliable transmission - will almost certainly outlast that boat anchor of an engine you have.

 

GD

Edited January 8, 2011 by GeneralDisorder

[Ionlyhave3suubs]

GD no overheats on the motor. Never got past 3/4 way up the temp gauge. The good used 2.2 is not such a cheap and easy fix for me out east. I have read about folks further west finding them for a few hundred bucks, I've looked but not found.

 

I'm also the kind of person that would miss the horsepower. I have read your posts about what a lousy motor the 2.5d is, and know how you feel about them.

[Fairtax4me]

If you want to drive to Petersburg there's a place there you can get a 2.2 for under $200.

I just looked at google maps and realized that is a long friggen drive from Roanoke!

 

Popping in turns might be a failing CV axle. That would be made worse by torque bind. Put a fuse in the FWD fuse holder on the passenger strut tower and see if it goes away.

Edited January 8, 2011 by Fairtax4me

[Ionlyhave3suubs]

Fairtax, do you have contact information for the place in Petersburg? It's 3.5 hours away but I will consider it.

[Fairtax4me]

Circle Auto Recycling.

It's a "pick-n-pull" place, but very well laid out. They also have another location in Richmond. Search inventory online. They don't list a phone number on their website but you can look it up and call to ask for specifics about certain cars.

 

http://www.chesterfieldauto.com/circle.htm

[GeneralDisorder]

I have no problem with the EJ25D under the right circumstance - rebuilt and with EJ22E heads they are a lot of fun. . I just don't trust a used stock DOHC farther than I could throw one.

 

I highly doubt you would miss the HP much. I just did a 2.2 swap into a '96 GT and frankly the gearing is half of it. The GT moves right along for having 20 less HP than it came with. I am very impressed with how *little* of a difference there really was.

 

GD

[johnceggleston]

I have no problem with the EJ25D under the right circumstance - rebuilt and with EJ22E heads they are a lot of fun. . I just don't trust a used stock DOHC farther than I could throw one.

 

I highly doubt you would miss the HP much. I just did a 2.2 swap into a '96 GT and frankly the gearing is half of it. The GT moves right along for having 20 less HP than it came with. I am very impressed with how *little* of a difference there really was.

 

GD

 

i don't know a whole lot about this stuff, but maybe we don't notice the loss of power because of the power curve. the factroy rated horse power is for a specif RPM, right?

so when taking off from a stop, you never see that HP until you reach that rpm. but i guess if you are winding it all the way out you will hit it pretty quick.

 

i swapped an ej22 into a gt as well and it is surprising how quick it is. if you want yourout back to be sporty, put some GT sized tires on it, 205/55/16, or 195/65/15. see if you notice a difference.

[GeneralDisorder]

Yeah - it's a combination of gearing and tires I'm sure. They may have also changed the TCU programming on the automatic to shift more aggressively. Mine has 205-60R15's on it and I put in a very nice EJ22 in excelent condition - I was really impressed with the performance.

 

Base model Legacy's came with the EJ22 as did Outback's in '96 - it's really no different.

 

GD

[johnceggleston]

Yeah - it's a combination of gearing and tires I'm sure. They may have also changed the TCU programming on the automatic to shift more aggressively. Mine has 205-60R15's on it and I put in a very nice EJ22 in excelent condition - I was really impressed with the performance.

 

Base model Legacy's came with the EJ22 as did Outback's in '96 - it's really no different.

 

GD

 

here in the US we are power hungry. bigger is better. and if this years car isn;'t more powerful than last years car we won't buy them.

 

they never offered the legacy 90 - 94 with the ej18 here in the US, but apparently that was offered over seas. maybe still is. i think they have in fact stopped producing the ej22 world wide, but i'm hot sure. seems it would have a market in europe.

 

i guess subaru sees the gas price spike of 08 as temporary. but ford and chevy seemed to have changed their strategy and product line. i wish subaru would build a a car with the ej22 and sell it as an economy car. but i guess if you are getting 30? mpg out of a ej25 you don't need to do that.

 

plus, re-tooling for the next five years is probably at least a 5 year process, maybe 10 years. hard to slam on the brakes and make a quick turn i guess.

 

oh well.

[GeneralDisorder]

here in the US we are power hungry. bigger is better. and if this years car isn;'t more powerful than last years car we won't buy them.

 

Heh - true. Perhaps I should pipe down since I daily drive an EA81 :-p..... But actually I also own a '91 SS with more power than any of the N/A 2.5's that Subaru has produced and I don't find the GT with the a stock EJ22E to be slow at all. In fact my lady commented on it's performance and she has driven the SS many times.

 

they never offered the legacy 90 - 94 with the ej18 here in the US, but apparently that was offered over seas. maybe still is. i think they have in fact stopped producing the ej22 world wide, but i'm hot sure. seems it would have a market in europe.

 

I think producing the EJ22 overseas isn't in the plan because of legislation and taxation on anything larger than a 2.0 over in Japan. That's the reason for the hot EJ20's they have been running over there for a couple decades. I know there have been smaller versions of the EJ than the 1.8 also. IIRC they even made an EJ15 at some point.

 

i guess subaru sees the gas price spike of 08 as temporary. but ford and chevy seemed to have changed their strategy and product line. i wish subaru would build a a car with the ej22 and sell it as an economy car. but i guess if you are getting 30? mpg out of a ej25 you don't need to do that.

 

I would like to see Subaru bring back the Justy (conceptually of course) - front wheel drive with an EJ15, and possibly an AWD option. Like those little AWD Suzuki's. There's still some of us that enjoy cars with go-cart handling and performance. Look at the popularity of the Cooper's and even those ugly "Smart" thing's. There's a market there if Subaru wanted it. They don't even offer a coupe anymore and Toyota is going to do what Subaru should have done years ago - the FT-86 should have been a Subaru product. The engine is there - light, compact, low center of gravity, symetrical.... they had the body too - the Imp. coupe. All they had to do was put in a RWD transaxle and an R180 in the back.

 

plus, re-tooling for the next five years is probably at least a 5 year process, maybe 10 years. hard to slam on the brakes and make a quick turn i guess.

 

oh well.

 

I don't think it would take that long. The tooling for an engine size change is nothing like tooling for a new car design. The EJ25 is only .3L bigger - a couple casting changes and some machineing station programming. No big deal really. That's a 6 month change-over if that. They likely already have all that stuff in storage from the '99 to '01 phase-II EJ222 that we got.....

 

GD

[Ionlyhave3suubs]

Contemplating my naval, ways to fix the 2.5d, and the 2.2 conversion (in that order).

 

Allright, to do that 2.2 conversion I need a obviously a 2.2 engine. What else do I need? I am not familiar at all with the 2.2 engine other than some reading I have done.

 

Parts list:

 

2.2 engine- what year works best with minimal changes?

 

Exhaust changes? I think I read that the 2.2 is a single port design, I know the 2.5 is a dual port. Y-pipe out of the donor car? Will that bolt right up to the outback exhaust?

 

Any ecu changes?

 

Use 2.2 or 2.5 intake?

 

Any sensors need to be changed etc.?

 

The part of Virginia where I live does not do emissions testing as of yet other than a visual inspection to see if it all looks to be there and not disabled (some shops are more anal than others with their inspections). That being said, there is always a chance they will begin emissions testing like some areas of northern VA and NC already do, so I dont want to do anything that will cause a CEL.

 

Anything else?

 

I know a smaller diameter tire would have a similar effect as going to a lower gear ratio, but I have seen Outbacks with small tires and my personal opinion is that they look a little funny because of the gap between the fenderwell and top of the tire. Also I know it doesn't seem that significant, but my Outback is my snowmoblie and I would rather not sacrifice any ground clearance. I have noticed a difference between the snow going abilities of the LSI with 195/60s and the Outback with 205/70s when it starts getting deep. I have a long gravel driveway with a steep hill. I guess I'll just have to live with the power reduction, the work involved in changing gear ratios does not seem worth the gain.

 

I may just go the frankenmotor route. I have to pull the motor anyway.

Frankenmotor as I understand it makes increased power by increasing compression ratio. I know a cam upgrade is recommended for best results, but doing it on the cheap, will there be significant power increase by changing to 2.2 heads without the cam change?

 

As I understand the chamber design of the 2.5, it is larger than a 2.2. If one were to put a 2.5 head on a 2.2, would that lower the compression ratio enough to turbo the 2.2, or will there be a valve clearance problem?

[johnceggleston]

preference of donor engines for a 2.5L car.

 

1. 95 ej22 w/ auto trans - straight swap, use the flex plate / flywheel that came with your original trans, non-interference engine.

2. 96 ej22 w/ auto trans - use exhaust y-pipe from the 2.2L car and flex / flywheel from your trans , non-interference engine.

3. 97 - 98 ej22 w/ auto trans - use exhaust y-pipe from the 2.2L car and flex / flywheel from your trans , interference engine.

 

there are a few oddities, if the donoe car is 96 - 98 you need the exhaust y-pipe. the exhaust ports on the heads changed from dual to single.

 

on all of these swaps, the power steering lins will not match the support bracket on the 2.2l intake. most folks don't worry and just let them fly. some make a bracket extension. if you have the 2.2L car you can swap in the PS line from it and they will work perfectly.

 

the flex plate / flywhell matches the trans it came with so use the original one that was on your car. (in the US the 2.5L trans has a larger torque converter and or pressure plate .)

 

do not disconnect the AC lines from the compressor. unbolt the compressor from the bracket and flop it out of the way during removal and re-install.

 

when you jack up the trans from below so the engine mounts will clear the cross member DO NOT put the jack under the trans oil pan. blace a block under the front diff and jack from there.(just behind the cross member.

 

the flex plate to torque converter bolts are removed from the top of the engine passenger side under the throttle body. during removal it's no big deal since you are swapping in different engine, but when installing, if you remove the TPS sensor mark it in 2 places so you can put it back EXACTLY the way it was. this will save a lot of head ache when you go to start it up. most folks don't remove the tps but i do, makes a little more room.

 

good luck.

Edited January 8, 2011 by johnceggleston

[ericem]

if you go turbo will require wiring ecu , crossmember etc not really plug and play deal. Also you need to run premium...

[GeneralDisorder]

Just remember these points:

 

1. Use the engine - but nothing past the end of the crank. Use the flywheel/flex-plate/etc from your 2.5

 

2. You will need the EJ22 power steering lines if you care about the swap being "picture perfect".

 

3. Whatever EJ22 you choose (95 to 98), you need one with EGR. That means from an automatic.... and apparently not *all* automatic EJ22's have EGR either. '95 for sure does. I just used a '96 and it did also. Beyond that there's a possibility that an auto 2.2 might not have one.. If you find a deal on one that does not have EGR then there will be a little more work involved to make the swap work without any check engine light. If you don't care about a CEL for a code that's basically just annoying..... then this doesn't even matter.

 

4. If you use a '96 or later EJ22 you will also need the front section of the exhaust as they are single port rather than dual-port like the older engines.

 

5. It is possible to use a '90 to '94 EJ22 long block (dual port exhaust, non interferance.... so it has it's advantages) - but you will need the '95 to '98 manifold. If it's cheaper to source them seperate (this can happen depending on the sources you have - sometimes manifolds are seperated from blocks that have thrown a rod, etc) then go for it. It's just an extra $6 for manifold gaskets.....

 

Everything else plugs right in. The ECU doesn't change, etc. The 2.2 and 2.5 use the same electronics, sensors, injectors, etc.

 

This is the EASIEST swap ever. It's so rediculously simple...... it's been done hundreds of times.

 

On the GT I just did - you can't tell the car ever had a 2.5. I had a whole donor car so I used the EJ22 PS lines, etc. It looks 100% stock and performs wonderfully. Drives like it's totally stock, etc. You would never know it wasn't a factory 2.2 car unless you looked at the engine bay data plate.

 

GD

Edited January 9, 2011 by GeneralDisorder