cmasonwhf Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 My 90 year old mother-in-law passed out driving her creampuff 2003, 20,000 mile Legacy Wagon into her underground garage. She woke up "a few seconds later" to find car t-boned into a pillar with her foot still down hard on the gas, engine running. Body damage was fixed, grandma turned over her keys, and I took the car for a spin. Uh oh!! On moderate acceleration from dead stop, "heavy thump thump thump" coming from below. Car taken to dealer who diagnoses VC damage, but has yet to open it up. Let's say the VC is toast. Insurance will cover it, but what ELSE could have been damaged? Automatic transmissing? cv joints or universal joints? drive shafts? I want to make sure anything that could have been damaged is inspected and fixed now, because the insurance adjuster is always coming up with "Well, we want to make sure these damages are caused by the accident, not part of normal wear and tear" Thanks in advance!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm drawing a blank here... VC? A thumping /rumbling on acceleration could be a well worn, or damaged U joint or driveshaft carrier bearing/bushing assembly. Could also be a damaged or worn CV joint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) vc = viscous coupler? that assumes the equation = manual transmission. transfer clutch = automatic. i think i would get a new shop who is familiar with subaru terminology. Edited January 9, 2011 by bheinen74 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmasonwhf Posted January 10, 2011 Author Share Posted January 10, 2011 Thanks for the responses. It IS an automatic. Description of the damaged unit was "it sits right behind the transmission and contains some type of clutch mechanism (s). So sounds like the transfer clutch, eh? That being said, sounds like i should have them check out other things (like the carrier bearing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 i'm confused what happened - "t-bone" - so it was hit in the side? or it was pushing up against a wall? (or both?) body damage was fixed - what was that? is this a L, GT, or OBW model? what does it do when going around a turn - any binding or slipping of tires? a heavy thump, thump, thump while accelerating straight does not sound like the rear transfer clutch (VC is manual trans as already cleared up) stuff to me. that's not typically now it happens...yet this doesn't appear like a typical failure either. i'd get a second opinion and make sure they're not guessing or wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Yes - this does not add up nor do the symptoms jive with a transfer clutch problem. Damage to the transfer clutch will cause binding in sharp turns (we call this torque-bind) or no power transfer to the rear wheels (depending on the damage - too much friction or not enough). I have never seen or heard of one causing any type of thumping noise. Sounds like the dealer is trying to get one over on the insurance company. But it could just be a mis-diagnosis or the thumping could be related to something else that has gone wrong. I can see how transfer clutch damage could occur if she was mashed hard on the go pedal with the car pinned against a barrier like that. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djmark7 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 maybe drive shaft issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmasonwhf Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 OK, let me clarify a few things. She passed out (actually it may well have been heart failure) and drove the car into a large concrete pillar. She hit it with the left front fender, destroying the headlight and quarter panel, and apparently the car sat nose to the pillar for a few seconds with the engine running and the accelerator to the floor. She couldn't have been going really fast because the space is limited and the air bag did not deploy. The crash itself was enough to get her heart going again, and she remembers that her foot was down hard on the gas when she woke up, at which time she lifted it off the accelerator. When I first drove the car, I noticed the thumping during medium hard straight-line acceleration. I played around with it a bit and found that the thumping would get worse, and the car would kinda slow down, when I accelerated during a right hand turn more than it would during a left hand turn and more than when I went straight. I sensed more rear drag during turns than during straight-iine movement. Hope this helps. Thanks for your interest and comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Yeah sounds like there's some indication of clutch pack failure. The binding around turns is a clue. The thumping you are hearing.... could that be the tires breaking loose on the pavement? That would make sense. When was the tranny fluid last changed? This problem is often caused by dirty, old fluid. The proper method to cure this is to drain as much of the old fluid as possible, fill it with new ATF and then drive the car for a day or two. The procedure is then repeated about three times total - giving it a chance to mix with the fluid that can't be removed from the torque converter each time. By the third drain/fill you basically have all new fluid and if dirty ATF is to blame then this should cure it. I have fixed quite a few with $30 in ATF. Do NOT have the transmission "flushed" - this will stir up metal and debris from the oil pan and likely cause more harm than good. Don't allow the dealership/shop to do this. If they will not listen then do the drain/fill on your own. It's cheap and simple. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 She hit it with the left front fender, destroying the headlight and quarter panel.the ATF fluid flows through this area as it makes it's way to the drivers side of the radiator. check for possible fluid loss or restricted ATF line or let us know if you already did. does the AT light flash 16 times when the car is first started? does it accelerate smooth and drive fine other than this binding/thumping? how bad was the suspension damaged - control arm, hub, axle, etc? got a pic of the damage or a list of what was replaced? it does sound like torque bind but hard to guess on such a strange incident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmasonwhf Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 Thanks for your responses. This is a 2003 Legacy L wagon with 20,000 easy miles on it. Can't imagine it's a lack of maintenance issue. Can't answer some of your questions since the car is at the dealer for repairs. Have some new information from the shop that repaired the front end. They replaced the left ball control arm and strut and a wheel bearing, besides doing the body work. Their guy suggested that perhaps the rear transmission mount and cross member might be bent, throwing the tranny out of line. So perhaps drive-shaft issue? The binding and thumping is only detectable at very low speed and medium- hard accelerations. Runs quiet, no vibrations at 30 or more mph, doesn't act funny around corners at that speed, and does not thump if you don't accelerate too fast, although you can feel the "dragging" of the rear end around tight corners, although at times I get kind of the same feeling from our Forester at very slow speed, i.e. that the awd system is kinda locked up-- no thumping though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I would guess that the ATF temp light flashing is indicating a duty-c solenoid failure - thus the torque bind around turns. The solenoid is not allowing fluid through to open the transfer clutch. The thumping sounds like a front CV to me. The fact that the control arm, ball joint, knuckle, etc were part of this accident lends credibility to a damaged CV joint that wasn't noticed when the repair was performed. The bent tranny mount/x-member idea from the body guy is a WAG and is almost certainly wrong. I've seen far worse collisions without any damage that far back. That's almost certainly not the issue. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 The thumping sounds like a front CV to me. The fact that the control arm, ball joint, knuckle, etc were part of this accident lends credibility to a damaged CV joint that wasn't noticed when the repair was performed. The bent tranny mount/x-member idea from the body guy is a WAG and is almost certainly wrong. I've seen far worse collisions without any damage that far back. That's almost certainly not the issue. +100 to that. i'd focus on the CV doing the thumping and the guy is giving a wrongful guess (for a tough situation) on the mount/xmember idea. if it was bad enough to require the hub, bearings, strut to be replaced - that's a pretty good hit. i'd suspect the axle and check the control arm mounting points to see if they got moved - measurements would need to be taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmasonwhf Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 Just got a call from Subaru dealer. After taking the transfer clutch apart they find it in "like-new" condition. They will go ahead and install all new clutch discs and solenoid (and cross their fingers that this will fix it.) The mechanic had taken the car for a drive before the got to this point and told the service rep that it behaved like a Subaru with many many miles on it. We'll see what happens when they take the car for a spin on Friday. Thanks all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Just got a call from Subaru dealer. After taking the transfer clutch apart they find it in "like-new" condition. They will go ahead and install all new clutch discs and solenoid (and cross their fingers that this will fix it.) The mechanic had taken the car for a drive before the got to this point and told the service rep that it behaved like a Subaru with many many miles on it. We'll see what happens when they take the car for a spin on Friday. Thanks all. nothing you are saying here makes ANY sense. If it was like new, then why did they replace it with new. I bet you are getting screwed on the bill for this unneeded stuff. Go someplace else for a second opinion, and FOR SURE ASK for all old parts they replaced back, cause i doubt they will install new parts, but will charge you for stuff they didnt do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmasonwhf Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 Well, I don't like their groping around with this either, but the cost is being absorbed by my insurance company, thank goodness. Friday after they get it back together they will either have fixed it (doubtful from all I've heard) or it will still be thumping. I liked the idea of "more damage up front than what got fixed" and passed that along to the dealer. Really appreciate all the feed back you are giving me!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 the key info here is its an insurance claim, that makes sense now, they will make out big on this on labor and parts. I hate insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firespray401 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I hate dealerships... they always pull this crap. Always trying to get more money out of you. Even though it is covered by insurance, they shouldn't be wasting your time like that. An honest mechanic is hard to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 I do think maybe the solenoid could have gotten ruined so ask for the old one back on that. I will buy the old clutch discs from you if they are still iike new, those are worth something or someone else on here would gladly buy them. Maybe the piston seal is bad on the transfer clutches that is possible too and it could have gotten torn up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 The AWD system in the automatic will cause some minor "drag" around corners even when the car is brand new and working properly. Most people don't ever notice it, but you can tell it's there if you really pay attention. Crash damage was to the front corner, it's a pretty good chance the half axle was damaged, especially with other suspension damage. I would be pretty pissed about them critter-footing around like this, replacing parts that don't need it. That is adding significant cost to the claim, which ultimately ends up coming out of your (or your grandmothers) pocket, when they raise the rate on the next premium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Did the dealer even pull the codes for the TCU? (AT temp light flashing means there's stored codes). I don't see why they would assume the clutch pack is bad having only 20k on it - any Subaru trained tech should know that if the duty-c fails it will not allow fluid pressure to open the clutch pack and thus the car will act like a 4WD. That's pretty straightforward troubleshooting - hell you don't even have to pull the codes. Just insert a fuse into the FWD fuse holder under the hood and go for a test drive - torque bind with FWD fuse in place = bad duty-c. Sounds like they put an amature or a poorly trained tech on your job or are milking the insurance company - which would totally piss me off because that's MY insurance rates they are playing with Definitely ask for the old clutch pack back. That's worth about $40 to someone. They run about $85 new. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Guys I don't see where the OP ever said the AT temp light was flashing. Or any other light for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Yeah you are right - I got confused apparently. :-p GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lesstutrey Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 CV, Half axle, it's possible. I slammed a car into a telephone pole in the snow at i have no idea what speed since i was going sideways. Car isn't a subaru, but all that was damaged was the half axle. I replaced it and the car no longer drives with a wobble, though i've sold it off to a friend (who's gonna do a total restore and use it for a daily driver). I would say harmonic dampener, but you are describing a thud.. not a rattle, and not at idle. My bet, half axle or cv joints.... that's what would cause that noise, especially based on the accident type, but i would think cv would only make noise on a turn unless it's real fubar. Other pieces of that multilink might have been damaged as well.. sounds like they are giving you a ton of cure for an ounce of ailment... but that's what shops do with insurance companies. Heck it could be from the front hit and be something driven by the serpentine belt that got bent. And what exactly does a subaru with a lot of miles drive like? stiff in the suspension like all cars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1-3-2-4 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I have not looked at the whole thread but possible bent wheel? I had that happen and it made the thumping sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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