soobie_newbie67 Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 after my rebuild, i knew the lifters were gonna clack for a while, but i didnt think they would still be clacking after more then 45 minutes of run time. whats going on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obk25xt Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I've had it take some time before too. Don't worry it'll go away if you did everything right! Also, if your just letting it idle that may not be enough, sometimes it takes some rpm's to do the trick. Take it for a spirited drive, watch the gauges, and it will go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 2 basic questions that SOMEONE will ask, so I might as well do it. Assuming that you had the heads off (or at least the cam carriers), did you use the special Subaru rubberized-metal gaskets (commonly referred to as O-rings, though they are not) for the oil passages between head and cam carrier? Did you ''reseal" the oil pump, with 2 o-rings and the mickey-mouse gasket? BTW, how is your oil pressure? (sometimes the M-M-gasket slips during installation.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 I've had it take some time before too. Don't worry it'll go away if you did everything right! Also, if your just letting it idle that may not be enough, sometimes it takes some rpm's to do the trick. Take it for a spirited drive, watch the gauges, and it will go away. alright, but i just got back from 30 miles of highway driving and its still clacking. will it take longer yet? btw, its not as loud anymore as when i first put it together and started it. for the first 20 minutes of run time it sounded like direct un-lubricated metal on metal contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 2 basic questions that SOMEONE will ask, so I might as well do it. Assuming that you had the heads off (or at least the cam carriers), did you use the special Subaru rubberized-metal gaskets (commonly referred to as O-rings, though they are not) for the oil passages between head and cam carrier? Did you ''reseal" the oil pump, with 2 o-rings and the mickey-mouse gasket? BTW, how is your oil pressure? (sometimes the M-M-gasket slips during installation.) well, i have good enough oil pressure to where the oil light goes out on the dash before the engine even starts (during cranking) and the motor hasnt seized up. and i did replace the o-ring/gasket thing on the oil pump w/o problems, and what, might i ask, are these special gaskets that you mention? and yes, i had the whole entire engine apart so the heads and cam carriers were off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjw Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 and what, might i ask, are these special gaskets that you mention? and yes, i had the whole entire engine apart so the heads and cam carriers were off. This is Definitely your problem. Each head has a o-ring sandwiched between the cam carrier and the top of the head. They absolutely need to be in place and they need to be the OEM version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 This is Definitely your problem. Each head has a o-ring sandwiched between the cam carrier and the top of the head. They absolutely need to be in place and they need to be the OEM version. please tell me i dont have to take the heads off to fix this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjw Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) Nope...But you have to take off the cam carriers. You need two of these. Edited January 16, 2011 by markjw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Nope...But you have to take off the cam carries. alright, do you have any pics or a super good detailed description as to what i need to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 sweet, thanks for the pic of the part i need, but i just went out and looked. i have the old engine which is shot, thanks to a crack, and checked out the heads and cam carriers, which i have done nothing to, and could not find anywhere where this part would go. do you have any pics or a description of where this part goes and how to put it in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 well, i have good enough oil pressure to where the oil light goes out on the dash before the engine even starts (during cranking) and the motor hasnt seized up. and i did replace the o-ring/gasket thing on the oil pump w/o problems, and what, might i ask, are these special gaskets that you mention? and yes, i had the whole entire engine apart so the heads and cam carriers were off. Oil "idiot lights" typically go off at only a couple PSI. I gather that your car has the light instead of the gauge? When you put the can-carrier onto the head, you had to put a sealant around the periphery of the cam-carrier. You also needed to install 2 special gaskets that are often mistaken for o-rings; there is one per camcarrier, located on the lower right edge as looking at the carrier-to-head mating surface. These special gaskets seal the oil passage between the head and the cam-carrier, so if they are missing or an o-ring is substituted, you will not have proper oil flow/pressure to the cams and to the HLAs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Oil "idiot lights" typically go off at only a couple PSI. I gather that your car has the light instead of the gauge? When you put the can-carrier onto the head, you had to put a sealant around the periphery of the cam-carrier. You also needed to install 2 special gaskets that are often mistaken for o-rings; there is one per camcarrier, located on the lower right edge as looking at the carrier-to-head mating surface. These special gaskets seal the oil passage between the head and the cam-carrier, so if they are missing or an o-ring is substituted, you will not have proper oil flow/pressure to the cams and to the HLAs. ok, i know exactly what your talking about now, and yes i did do it wrong. the overhaul kit i bought had o-rings instead of these little special ones your talking about. but, i did put plenty of sealent (w/o overdoing it) on the "carrier-head mating surface" so thats not a problem. but here's what i dont get. when i did the head work on my other Subaru (needed a little valve grind) it had one of these o-rings in question, and i replaced it, and have not had any problems with excessive clacking. maybe the oil passage on my rebuilt motor is plugged just enough to not let the oil through? i did hot tank every single engine part, but i took a air hose and blew out all the oil passages, but overlooked the ones on the cam carriers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markjw Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Look at the cam carrier surface the mates to the top of the head. You'll see a dime sized recess, round of course, that the o-ring lays in. If you put the carrier on to the top of the head, it's obvious which oil passage the ring is supposed to seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Regular o-rings tend to not work well. Another possible cause/issue is there is an oil-pressure relief in each of the the cam carriers (IIRC, accessible under the cam covers). Trouble can be caused if they stick either open or closed. (Yours would more likely be open.) Do you know where the clacking noise is coming from? Are you reasonably certain that it is the HLAs? Is there a possibility that the HLAs drained away their oil while removed? (Laying around on their sides, oil deliberately pumped out of them, etc) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 Regular o-rings tend to not work well. Another possible cause/issue is there is an oil-pressure relief in each of the the cam carriers (IIRC, accessible under the cam covers). Trouble can be caused if they stick either open or closed. (Yours would more likely be open.) Do you know where the clacking noise is coming from? Are you reasonably certain that it is the HLAs? Is there a possibility that the HLAs drained away their oil while removed? (Laying around on their sides, oil deliberately pumped out of them, etc) one quick question that i stupidly did not ask earlier. what are the HLA's; what are there functions; where are they??? and if they are what i think i have a clue to what they are, i would say they had they had the oil washed out of them when i hot tanked the heads and cam carriers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 one quick question that i stupidly did not ask earlier. what are the HLA's; what are there functions; where are they??? and if they are what i think i have a clue to what they are, i would say they had they had the oil washed out of them when i hot tanked the heads and cam carriers. HLAs (Hydraulic Lash Adjusters) are the pivot points for the rockers. One end of the rocker rested on the ball of the HLA, the other end on the valve stem tip, and the cam lobe pressed down on the rocker. The HLA is equivalent to an hydraulic lifter in a pushrod engine: It serves to take up the slack in the valve train so that you don't have to set valve clearances. It is a little hydraulic cushion, one that can move up a little and move down a little, controlled by oil pressure fed to it, its internal valving, and the pressure pushing down on it. I have heard that if they are not properly filled with oil prior to reinstalling then they can have some serious issues: I THINK that someone said that they could collapse to the point that they won't function again. (This is from a foggy memory, and MAY be completely WRONG.) (Keeping them stored in a container of motor oil after removing them from the head might be the best way to prevent troubles... or, better yet, buy rebuilt units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) alright, i definitely know what your talking about now. hmmmm, well, i really dont know what im going to about it now atm. the little hydrolic lifter things had little retainers on them that holds the center part in, and the majority of the lifters had broken retainers. i used the lifters from the old motor since they were all good, but wasnt able to replace all of them cause they wouldnt come out. i guess i'll have to figure something out soon. i dont want to have to buy new ones, seeing as the only ones i have found are on ebay, and cost something like, 40 bucks a piece. just checked ebay, actually 80 bucks for 4 of them. Edited January 16, 2011 by soobie_newbie67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 You realize you are going to kill this EA82T with your lack of experience and attention to detail don't you? Just saying..... You are not getting proper oil pressure to the lifters - and by the sounds of it probably not to the cams either. Every mile that you drive like this holds the potential for SEVERE damage. Nasty things will happen if you don't stop driving it and fix it immediately. If you hot-tanked the heads and did not remove the HLA's prior to doing so you have potential for oil contamination with solvent, etc. Further if you do not understand the function of an HLA nor how they work or if you even have them..... you have no business tearing apart anything as complex as that engine.... let alone one with so many fatal design flaws that it will shred itself if you look at it cross-eyed. The cam carrier o-rings are very important for proper lifter oil supply - as is the oil pump seals, and the pump itself. If you let them tick for an extended period of time - be prepared to send them out to be rebuilt. You will damage them allowing them to tick like that. If you put any RTV around that passage where the o-ring goes...... I would hate to be you right now. Bits of it are probably all through the lubrication system and it may be easier to just replace the cam towers to insure there's no possibility of oil starvation later. You claim you tore the engine all the way down.... how far did you *really* take it? You split the main case? What did you do in there? I don't beleive you have the experience or knowledge to properly "rebuild" an engine. Just doesn't come through in how you talk or what you seem to know. If you really did that...... my best sugestion for you is to find someone that KNOWS what they are doing to help you take it back apart and do it right. This is not the full extent of what you have done wrong - I just feel it. I have a sense about these things..... GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) ok GD, you dont have be a total d1ckhead to me. i have rebuild serveral engines, but V-8s and V-6's, never a boxer engine, so dont even criticize when you dont know f*cking sh*t about me. im just trying to get help, and people are helping me realize my mistakes in a much nicer way then you *********************. im aware that im going to have to cam carriers and stuff apart and clean them out, which wont be very hard. oh, and for your information, i took the engine apart all the way down to splitting the case so i could replace the main and rod bearings. i do know what the f******* im doing GD, so dont assume. you know, GD, the whole reason im hear is to get help, and if you can help me with out being total f**king d**khead, then dont give me answer, that will make it easier for both of us. im surprised there are any new members here like me who dont know what they are doing once in a while with someone like you here who insults and bashes all the time. Edited January 16, 2011 by soobie_newbie67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) im pretty damn sure i probably got that rtv to close to those o-rings, so im gonna remove the cam carriers and check it all out. random off topic question: what would anyone recommend i use for engine oil in this turbo engine? right now im running Federated 10W-30 for the initial break in/ seating the rings. i think i heard someone say Valvoline? they said thats best for Turbo engines. Edited January 16, 2011 by soobie_newbie67 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 I call them like I see them. You shouldn't have such thin skin about it. I'm making a prediction - if you don't think it will come true then that's fine. I've been doing this a while and I do it every day. You get a sense for it after a while. You have to LOOK at stuff that you take apart. Do some research before you just start pulling fasteners off. That means reading - may not be glamorous but if you want to do the job right the first time..... Counter-sunk areas that are round and are surrounding a hole are typically used for o-rings. That should have been pretty obvious when you were applying the sealant. At the very least it should have caused an eyebrow to go up in question..... GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 I call them like I see them. You shouldn't have such thin skin about it. I'm making a prediction - if you don't think it will come true then that's fine. I've been doing this a while and I do it every day. You get a sense for it after a while. You have to LOOK at stuff that you take apart. Do some research before you just start pulling fasteners off. That means reading - may not be glamorous but if you want to do the job right the first time..... Counter-sunk areas that are round and are surrounding a hole are typically used for o-rings. That should have been pretty obvious when you were applying the sealant. At the very least it should have caused an eyebrow to go up in question..... GD well, maybe you should start reading too cause i said earlier that my kit came with o-rings and i replaced them when i put it back together. then i went on to say in a later post that im pretty damn sure that i got a little rtv in there when i put it back together so im gonna take off the cam carriers and check it out. on a different note i just got done taking off the valve cover on the passenger side of the engine. all parts are soaked in oil so i cause that means that everything LOOKS good so far, but im not gonna chance it, im still taking the cam carriers off and checking for rtv where it shouldnt be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soobie_newbie67 Posted January 16, 2011 Author Share Posted January 16, 2011 i have a question about the HLA's. how often do they go bad? what makes them go bad? like i said i took the valve cover off on the passenger side, then i watch while my grandpa started the engine and oil just flooded around inside, so oil getting to the parts is definitely not the problem. im still going to check to see if those oil passages are clogged by RTV, but at the same time my grandpa says he'll buy me new HLA's if you guys say its a good idea that i do replace them, or if there is a better alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 You should do some searches about lifter ticking, tick of death, etc. It's well documented. The solution is often a combination of things - oil supply is critical and its not all about volume or pressure - its at least partially about aerated oil from poor seals, pump cavitation, etc. Ultimately replacing all the seals, the oil pump itself, and all the lifters is often required to stop it in any kind of permanent way. It's not a cheap proposition. The lifters get gummed up and worn. They can be rebuilt but you would be well served to have that done by mizpah precision. Do a search.... GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 ...The lifters get gummed up and worn. They can be rebuilt but you would be well served to have that done by mizpah precision...GD GD had a thread about Mizpah a little while ago: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=117067&highlight=mizpah If you want to be certain, this would be a good way to go. Otherwise, I saw a good deal at RockAuto a few months ago... don't know if they still have it. I would still probably go with Mizpah unless turnaround time dictated otherwise. You might want to consider getting the proper "o-ring" seals from Subaru. If this is impractical, I probably have several extras that I could mail to you. Do you have a Factory Service Manual, or access to one of the online copies? If so, read about the pressure relief valves in the cam carrier and make sure that they are clean and working. (Glad to hear that there is no obvious upper-end oil starvation.) RE: Oil - Lots of people have opinions and biases about oil. I think that the the best thing you could do is change the oil and filter regularly, every 3k or less. 10W30 is probably good, be careful about wide differences in the cold vs hot numbers, as these typically have Viscosity Index enhancers that tend to degrade quickly with heat. Oil cooler would be a good thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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