Deener Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 I am on my way to pick up a block that had the broken head bolt removed (25 bucks at Heads Unlimited in Surrey, BC) and I am about to start the assembly process. I turned the crank while the block was out of the car to get at the dirty pistons so I could clean them off. The fact that I spun the crank - is that going to cause a problem for me when I go to re-assemble the engine? I would just like to be sure that I don't have to spin the crank back to the position it was in before I took it apart in or set it to a certain 'stroke postion' or whatever for re-assembly. Also - the valves/valve stems (round things on the side of the heads where they meet the block/pistons - at least I think thats what they are) are fairly dirty, as dirty as the pistons were. Should I be exercising extreme caution when cleaning them or would it be safe to run my (soft) brass wire disc in my drill on them with some carb cleaner or acetone? They have caked on carbon deposits and I just don't want to scar/damage anything by cleaning them too much. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthWet Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 Crank position is unimportant until you get to the point of setting timing belts. This is a "non-interference" engine, which means that under no "normal" circumstance will the pistons and valves interfere with each other. The engine is great that way. You should be abe to carefull brush off the carbon and crud... more likely to damage the aluminum then the valveheads. If you have the valves disassembled from the heads, I would not get the wire brush near the vavleseat area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 Ah sweetness! Thanks NorthWet. That puts my mind at ease. The valves are still in the heads - to be cleaned tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 +1 no aligning issues on the block and heads. orientation matters for the distributor, tbelt, and torque converter (if auto). the cams will naturally turn some as you bolt the cam towers in place and the lobes seat themselves on the rocker arms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted January 18, 2011 Share Posted January 18, 2011 The III mRK ON THE FLYWHEEL DENOTES THAT ALL OF THE PISTONS ARE IN THE CENTER OF THEIR BORE AT THE SAME TIME. tHERE IS NO INTERFERENCE ISSUES, BUT YOU WILL WANT TO USE THIS MARK WHEN SETTING THE TIMING BELTS. sorry caps I use a brass wire wheel on the valves and pistons, since the brass is softer than the aluminum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Yeah, this one is a 5spd standard. I just got the top cleaned up nicely and its resting on the engine stand and waiting for Subaru to call with the head bolt I ordered - the longer of the two (800211050). This is my third EA82 timing belt job, just the first time I have had an engine seperated. The parts store I use couldn't find an 'oil pump seal' per se. They gave me an 'oil pump o-ring' instead that kind of looks like a Mickey Mouse outline - like one big ring and two small rings all connected. The internet pictures kind of suggest that it's correct but since I haven't ripped the pump off yet, will I need anything else to get it back on and sealed properly aside from that one seal/o-ring? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted January 19, 2011 Share Posted January 19, 2011 There is another inner o-ring that fits on the circular part of the pump inside the block. The mickey mouse seal is the mating surface seal. There is also a shaft seal. good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted January 19, 2011 Author Share Posted January 19, 2011 Sounds good, thanks - I thought there had to be more to it than just the one seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanurys Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) I turned my crank while rebuilding my ea82. No issues. I'm not sure if it was rust in the cylinders from sitting open to air for 2 months or the new valve seals, but it smoked after engine braking for the first 200 miles. Now, nothing smoky is even detected and the oil level stays constant so I chalk it up to break in. Some say don't use any RTV on the oil pump and some say put the thinest layer possible. I tried a thin thin thin layer and didn't have any hint of particles in the oil stream. I also replaced the seal behind the oil pump pulley with a new NOK (OEM). No leaks is AWESOME! The part is listed on my thread or in the pictures in the link of the first post: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=114817&highlight=1987+build+thread Have fun and make sure your lifters are in good shape while you're in there. They make the timing run SO smooth. Edited January 20, 2011 by kanurys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Right on, thanks for the thread. Ha ha...I snapped an oil pan bolt last night, drilled it out no problem (getting good at this now) and used one of the shorter timing belt cover bolts in its place with a couple of washers to match the original length/depth since the threads seemed to match nicely. The manual said 15ft/lbs but I swear it didn't even hit ten and that was using the wand type wrench (ever since I snapped that headbolt the clicker wrench is now used as a door stop). The pan bolts weren't even finger tight when I backed them out so I am confident that I know where some of the leaking was coming from. I will still do the oil pump since it is right there, I just won't pull it until I can get all of the seals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanurys Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The oil pan bolts should only be an RCH more than finger tight or you'll split the cork gasket. I learned that one the hard way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 The cheap cork gaskets that you get from the aftermarket suppliers will split, yes. The OEM one's from the dealer will not. You need to coat both sides of the gasket in RTV and let it dry before installation. This saves the cork from absorbing oil and failing down the line. You are creating your own rubberized gasket and they work quite well if you are careful and use a good inch-pounds torque wrench to tighten them. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted January 20, 2011 Author Share Posted January 20, 2011 Rats. The gasket I put on was a Felpro, and I didn't use any RTV. Permatex ultra-grey I suppose? I will get a new gasket and try again with an RTV coating. Inch pounds it is...how many? Somewhere between 120 and 180? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 More like 90 to 100 inch pounds. These are tiny little guys. You don't want to use anything but the OEM pan gasket - the aftermarket are total crap. You would think that cork is cork..... but that's not the case. Density and the amount of glue being used makes a huge difference. I wish Fel-Pro would make a single-peice silicone gasket with hard bolt bushings for the EA series pan's. They make these for my 350 SBC and it's a lifesaver! I replaced that damn 4-peice cork/rubber thing like 3 times before I gave up and ordered the silicone single peice unit for $25. Total win. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanurys Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 GD, I think it was your suggestion which worked well for me. I lined the gasket with the proper RTV and let it dry before installing. Then put just a thin film on again at install. It seemed to reinforce the gasket allowing a good seal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Well, the RTV coating over the cork pan gasket looks pretty good. I now understand why you suggested it. The pan is back on, the oil pump is back on, the heads are back on, and I am about to install the the cam carriers and valve/rocker covers tonight, then swing the engine back in. I am pumped. I assume the torque values for the cam carriers and the valve/rocker covers are in the Haynes - unless anyone has a conflicting opinion on what they should be. I read here that when coating the cam carriers with RTV you should first clean the seam out really well and then apply a small, even bead to each side (head and carrier), then let it dry for about 30 minutes to set up little bit - this makes sense for the mating surfaces to have somethinig to adhere to. What I am wondering though is about the bolt holes on both the carriers and the covers where the grommets meet the metal. There was trace amounts of old RTV in both of those bolt locations, so should I be doing the same thing for those bolt holes or will the grommets and outside bead of RTV/ultagrey on the carriers be sufficient? Or was that RTV that I found an artifact of someones failed attempt at stopping an oil leak? Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 You should not have to use RTV on the valve cover grommets if you have new ones. The bolts are shouldered, that they will snug down metal to metal before squishing out the rubber grommets. Tighten to snug and you are good. MAke sure to use a pick or razor to remove all the old sealent fromt he groove on the bottom of the cam tower. Use the ultra grey, or some anearobic (hondabond, etc), but do not use regular blue or black rtv. You can use a dab to hold the o-ring in place. The o-ring is important, as that can be potential for a major oil leak/pressure loss It is not necessary to apply ultra grey to the head side, just the carrier side. Fit the parts together and install the bolts hand tight. Let it set up, and then torque in a radial pattern, starting from the middle and working out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted January 27, 2011 Author Share Posted January 27, 2011 Will do. I have permatex ultragrey. The previous little carrier rings were pretty beat up and I suspect the source of its leak but the new ones (from the dealer) fit nice and tight. Thanks again for all your help everyone. I will update when I have it all back together and running if I don't have any more questions before then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanurys Posted January 27, 2011 Share Posted January 27, 2011 +1^^. I used a small flat head screwdriver to peel the old sealant right out. Don't use just any old o-ring. The new version is rubber coated metal - much better. Make sure that the surface which leads to the pressure relief/banjo bolt that squirts all over the cam lobes is really clean and without scratches. That is another oil pressure loss spot, but isn't designed to be sealed w/ sealant. While you're in there, it isn't a bad idea to change the relief springs, as well. I think they're about $2 from the dealer. The cam carrier oil relief springs are a different part number than the oil pump pressure relief spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 Missed your post there Kanurys. I put the cams on last night without any trouble, didn't know about the springs. I didn't break any bolts last night so I am off to a comparatively good start. My Ultra Grey tube sprung a bottom end leak hlf way through, but that was the only issue. Tonight I am going to put the covers on and lift the engine back in and hook it all back up. I just unbolted the intake, swung it aside and its hangin by a bungee, so the rest should be quick. Anything I should be aware of/careful of when lifting the engine back in? I have a crane and some chain with quick links that I used to get the block out when the heads were off but the wieght distribution is going to be different now with everything on when I go to lift it back in. Just a guess but it looks like I might have to jiggle/spin the crank to line the flywheel notches up with the notches on the little starter gear...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 Will do. I have permatex ultragrey. I am a convert to "The Right Stuff" gasket maker. It really is the best stuff. Works for Cam carriers, EJ oil pumps, Baffle plates....anything. It also makes a pretty good removable threadlocker too! If you buy it in the tubes for a caulk gun it's not too expensive....lasts a long time. Best of all, if you just leave a small dab hanging out of the tip to dry, you can just pull it out and the dry end plug will come right out. (unlike RTV which ussually requires some digging and messing around to clear out the nozzle for each use. My .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 The starter shouldn't be an issue for the install - having the socket on the crank so you can rotate it a bit does usually help though with input shaft alignment (assuming it's a manual right?). Put a jack under the transmission so the engine mounts will clear the x-member as you slide them together. Tilt the engine backwards at the same angle as the tranny. Usually they slide right in. Sometimes with the EA's you will have trouble with the tranny input shaft lineing up with the clutch disc and pilot. On EA's I leave the pressure plate just loose enough that the disc can slide around with just a little friction. Then once it's mated you can tighten the PP bolts through the starter hole. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I am a convert to "The Right Stuff" gasket maker. I used to use that stuff in the Army - the aerosol cans are real conveient. I thought it was just RTV though? My favorite though is the loctite 518/Permatex anaerobic gasket maker. LOVE that stuff. I used it on the last EA82 cam carrier I installed and it worked great. The great thing about the 518 is that it doesn't dry in air - so the caulking gun sized tube that I use never even has a cap on it. Just hangs on the wall. LOL. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloyale Posted January 28, 2011 Share Posted January 28, 2011 I used to use that stuff in the Army - the aerosol cans are real conveient. I thought it was just RTV though? Nah.... it's different. It dries to an almost rubber texture. I swear if you could lay a perfectly round bead of it, you could make O-rings from it. Dries much quicker than RTV. Also, it's easier to remove if you have to disassemble later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deener Posted January 28, 2011 Author Share Posted January 28, 2011 The starter shouldn't be an issue for the install - having the socket on the crank so you can rotate it a bit does usually help though with input shaft alignment (assuming it's a manual right?). Put a jack under the transmission so the engine mounts will clear the x-member as you slide them together. Tilt the engine backwards at the same angle as the tranny. Usually they slide right in. Sometimes with the EA's you will have trouble with the tranny input shaft lineing up with the clutch disc and pilot. On EA's I leave the pressure plate just loose enough that the disc can slide around with just a little friction. Then once it's mated you can tighten the PP bolts through the starter hole. GD Yup, its a manual. I still have my floor jack supporting the tranny at the same magic angle that I removed the block at. I hope she slides right in there just like it came out. I am still a little shy about the clutch/pressure plate/flywheel pieces - this is the first time I have ever seen an engine out of a car so I am still identifying parts and reading up as I go along. Thanks for the pressure plate tip. Dean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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