Juan Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 In for routine oil change on "05 Outback. Dealership. Service tells me I have "Zero front brakes". Hard to believe. There is no indication of wear either audible, as the manual mentions, or otherwise. The discs feel fine: smooth on both sides with a barely detectable lip. Besides, wouldn't they have noticed such a drastic situation 3 months ago at last service? I know they all need replacing --it's got 60,000 miles on it-- just not today. Am I at risk here? Juan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I've experienced a Suddenly "Zero Brake Pads" situation on my Wife's Kia, but that was caused due to the Extremly Cheap Brake pads the Previous Owner installed: Cheap Pads does not have the Part that makes the Metal-to-Metal Noise at the near-end of 'em. Maybe that's your Subie's Situation... or were those Original Subaru Brake Pads? I Kindly suggest you to Ask 'em to show you the Brake Pads, maybe those aren't totally Worn to be "Zero Brakes" as they said, but they want to Sell you New Pads + maybe the pads are Very Worn. Kind Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Anytime you have zero brakes there is a danger. It is considered zero by some when they get down to the audible warning. Others consider it zero when the rotors get chewed up. Ask the delaership/shop to show you your brakes on the car to help you decide. The sooner you replace the pads less likely to damage the rotors. We all know "next week" turns into "next month" ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 Brakes are orginal equipment. I guess it all boils down to their defintion of "zero brakes." I may take it back and ask for that defintion, but these are the same dealer people who told me I needed a scheduled timing belt replacement at 60,000 miles. Manual says 90,000. Juan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I dont know where you are from, but it is 105,000 miles in the US. 60,000 miles is reasonable for the fronts, the rears can go twice that unless you always carry a load or tow a lot. DO NOT ask them for a definition, let them show you and ignore what they tell you. Make up your mind, a reasonble person can see when there is alot of pad left ot too little left. Actually screw it go to another shop. Non dealer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 they're probably exagerarating, they are trained to sell services and your brakes probably are close to needing changed. so they aren't lying and are providing you a service by checking and replacing. the chances that you have "zero" meaning they're dangerously low are probably extremely small. my guess is they are fine for now and you should start thinking about having them done soon. brakes are really simple and there's no reason to have them done at a dealer, who tends to be high on price. although i wouldnt' go cheap just to go cheap, i'd want a trusted and known mechanic/person to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I have never heard of the term "zero front brakes." Guess that means they are saying that your front pads are wearing down, or getting thin, and needing replacement. Guess the scare tactic term of "zero front brakes" sounds a lot more urgent and dangerous then telling you simply that you need new front brake pads soon. Replacing brake pads is really easy on a Subie. Even a cave man could do it. Like others said, go to an independent shop, if you aren't able to do it yourself. Ask for a brake inspection before telling them to replace the front pads. You don't want to waste money, if the front pads are still good. No need to have this work done by the dealer at a higher cost. Since your brakes are not squealing or grinding, then your rotors are prolly not damaged. Have only the fronts replaced, the rears last twice as long as the front. Something like 80% of all braking is done by the front brakes. Also prolly a good idea to have the brake fluid flushed, and replaced with new fluid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Poor choice of words on the part of the service department. They have fallen into the "marketing" trap. You obviously don't have "zero" front brakes or they wouldn't work. Simple as that. But telling people "you have 3/16" of pad left" is both cryptic and not "alarming" enough to get them to buy the brake service. It would have been better if they had just showed you a new pad next to one of your old pads (takes 20 seconds to remove one). That would probably make you buy the service without exagerated marketing terminology. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suba9792 Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 again this is why everyone gets screwed at shops, they are just a bunch of crooks, do the brakes yourself its not hard even for a newbie. Ive done my own brakes for years after a les Schwab screw up, they left off one pad, air in the system, coming down from Mt.Hood was a scary feat after that. They refunded all of the money and I did them myself, this was on a 85 Chevy 1/2ton SWB with 10" lift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShawnW Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 again this is why everyone gets screwed at shops, they are just a bunch of crooks, Not all shops are crooks. It only takes 1 bad apple to make all of them look bad but there are some great shops out there. I take great offense to this comment even though I know you aren't talking specifically about me. If you can fix your car yourself by all means do it but not everybody can. I have had numerous cars towed to me where a do it yourselfer tried to fix something themselves and made it far worse, spent an entire day on something that is quick for me, etc. The wear indicator on a brake pad can come off. Some are just slid onto the side of a pad and most new brake pads only have one indicator per axle on the Subarus. You can be pretty low on brake pad and not have it squeel but nobody here can speculate any better than visually looking at your car. I agree with GD here, they should have just removed the brake pads on one caliper and showed you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Not all shops are crooks. It only takes 1 bad apple to make all of them look bad but there are some great shops out there. I take great offense to this comment even though I know you aren't talking specifically about me. I don't take offense at his comment, but I do completely understand the feelings he has. Here's the problems that I see: 1. Most of the "crooked" or just "incompetent" shops out there are also the cheap one's. So people think they are getting a good deal. The reality is usually that the work performed and parts used will be of such low quality that the repair is not worth the money being paid - even if it seems cheap. Case in point being Suba9792's clutch. He wrongly assumed that $400 and "we'll be in and out in 2 hours" was a great deal - cheap, fast, etc. Unfortunately they used the worst aftermarket clutch I've ever seen (made in Korea), broke numerous electrical connectors, did not replace zip-ties/secure things properly, lost one of his bell-housing alignment pins, and "forgot" to put gear oil in the transmission. The job was so bad it is almost comical. 2. The "good" shops are expensive. They use quality parts and have a highly trained, expensive labor force. They stand behind their work. BUT - even people that go there and pay for the repair feel like they got "ripped off" because the cost is so high. So - basically everyone in the world thinks "mechanic" is interchangeable with "shyster, crook, scoundrel, etc" because either they do a horrible job or they rob you blind. There isn't much middle ground that I've seen except for the few independant guys like myself and Shawn, etc. And eventually we will probably fall into the 2nd catagory above as we either open our own shops and have to charge a mint for our services due to overhead or work for a shop that does the same. Personally I couldn't live with myself for doing work as in #1 above. It's wrong and I won't do it. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 60,000 miles is reasonable for the fronts, the rears can go twice that unless you always carry a load or tow a lot. DO NOT ask them for a definition, let them show you and ignore what they tell you. Make up your mind, a reasonble person can see when there is alot of pad left ot too little left. Actually screw it go to another shop. Non dealer. Rear brakes tend to go alot faster than front brakes these days for whatever reason on a lot of cars & trucks. They may be under-spec'ing them for the 30% braking force they normally contribute, but I've done more rear brake jobs than front. The same car equipped with drum brakes goes the lifetime as far as I've run across. Any decent tech will put the brake pad thickness measurment on the RO and give the service advisor a head's up that there's a potential brake upsell. The measurement doesn't need to be wildly precise, the tire tread depth gauge held up next to the pad and eyeballed is good enough. Unfortunately the SA may not feel like telling the customer a real number as they disregard 3/4 of the info techs give them in the first place. A few of them cut and paste their version of the generic service description on top of the tech's description of what actually got done. So the description of the service you paid for on your reciept may have nothing to do with the work that was done and documented on your car by the tech. I know of scumbag tech's that keep a box of various worn out brake pads, so they have a set that's the right size for the car they're upselling to show the customer, so the "show me the pads" may not work. You need to look at the pads on the car, and you can usually see the outer one by looking through the wheel with a pen light, and the inner one with the wheel off through the hole in the caliper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Yes, watch out for shade tree stores like "Brakes Plus" and Midas. Those places have been documented on nightline, 20/20, etc shows as being crooked. They have a box of worn thru rotors and pads strictly to scare people into buying something. And of course, in the end, you ask for your old parts back, WELL guess what, the nightline show had marked/stamped the old parts, and what they got back was not stamped. Basically, they had new parts on the car, MARKED, and went in for inspection, and was told they needed new brakes. they asked for old parts back, paid the 450 dollar service fees, and got ripped off. Go back to the shows shop, pull off the "new" parts from Brakes Plus, and they are still stamped with their own marking from before.-NO new parts......lots of places like that around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
logic23 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Do the brakes yourself. You can get better/cheaper brake parts ( ceramic pads) and you'll know they are done right. Subarus are some of the easiest cars to work on. If you are game i can talk you through every step. As far as shops go the dealer is just as bad as the shady tree mechanics. The MOST messed up mechanic work I have ever seen (mulitple times) has come out of subaru dealers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 ...basically everyone in the world thinks "mechanic" is interchangeable with "shyster, crook, scoundrel, etc" ... I Know some people that have had bad Repairs done to their cars, that think like That... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1-3-2-4 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 This is worn.. tore the rotor up pretty good.. replaced all rotors and changed to ceramic pads and I love it! no more pad deposits left on the rotor and getting that shaking feel when braking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Posted October 18, 2011 Author Share Posted October 18, 2011 Wanted to post how this turned out: Had dealer do front brakes at 70K -save all parts (funny look). Took brake pads home and examined them. Brakes were not squeaking because ONE pad was worn on ONE outside corner almost to the backing. The wear was not near the "squeaker". In fact, the pad was really nice EXCEPT on that one corner. (Too bad they couldn't have shown me that when they told me I had "...zero front brakes. Zippity-doo-dah front brakes." I would have had them done right away.) All the other pads were beautiful with fully defined mid channels nice even wear and plenty, in my layman's opinion, of life left on them. So. It looks like that is one reason a brake pad won't emit a loud audible warning when in need of replacement. NOW: any idea as to why one pad wore this way? I'll never know which corner it was on. I can imagine the look on the service guy's face if I asked him to save parts and note location of removal. Juan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Frozen brake caliper slider (s). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I'm guessing less the caliper slider and leaning more towards the pad getting stuck on one side. I don't think the whole caliper could rack enough to wear just one corner/end down. But, one of those two things. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 one pad worn on the corner. "All the other pads were beautiful with fully defined mid channels nice even wear and plenty, in my layman's opinion, of life left on them" you asked to save old parts..... All others were good. They took your money for brake job not needed. I am not surprised. Corners of the pads do not wear alone. So did the shop put a grinding wheel to the corner of the one, just to make it look like you needed brakes. A Corner just does not wear, it is physics here.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Rust on the rotor. This seemingly innocent ring of rust around the outer edge of the rotor, will create a groove in the face of the pad as the rust chews off big pieces of pad material. It only gets worse because the pad no longer makes contact with the rotor in that area. It's probably on the inside of one of the rotors. Is the worn off area on the outside curve of the pad or the inside curve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red92 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Poor choice of words on the part of the service department. They have fallen into the "marketing" trap. You obviously don't have "zero" front brakes or they wouldn't work. Simple as that. But telling people "you have 3/16" of pad left" is both cryptic and not "alarming" enough to get them to buy the brake service. Exactly. We had a VW in at a dealership for an oil change a while back, and when we came to pick up the car they gave us the same story - front brakes were almost completely gone, rears were at 20%, and if we didn't change them ASAP we were going to crash and die and kill all the small children and puppies in a 50-mile radius. Of course, we declined the service, and had the brakes changed a few months later by one of the "expensive but well worth it" independent specialist shops.... for HALF the price! I'm pretty sure that the "zero brakes" line is just to make you panic and get the service on-the-spot. If they tell you it isn't urgent, then you have time to shop around, and realize just how high the rates are for dealer service work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Since I work for an independent Subaru shop, I guess I can shed some light on the brake pad uneven wear. I typically see this when the brakes are OEM. Not a frozen slide, they just start to stick because the grease solidifies inside the caliper bracket. A new set of pads, turn the rotors and make SURE to clean the slides, inside of the caliper brackets and the pad hardware thats mounted on the caliper bracket. The other cause for the brake pads wearing unevenly is because the ends of the pads will stick in the hardware mounted on the caliper bracket. Again, these areas should be cleaned while doing the brake job. I use a small steel wire brush to clean them off. Usually with this scenario, its the rear brakes that do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CNY_Dave Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 This thread needs pics! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Posted October 20, 2011 Author Share Posted October 20, 2011 OK. Picture attemptS: An hour figuring out how to send a few pictures isn't too bad, is it? Brakes so simple a cave man could do them? Juan, the neanderthal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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