Thirdeye Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Hi all. Just joined the board. Was lurking different sites, and saw that there seemed to be good help here, so here I am. Some quick info on the car: 2000 Subaru Impreza Outback Sport EJ 2.2 Liter 4 cylinder manual transmission 125k miles The incident happened while the car was stopped. I went to turn the key and the engine barely started, idled very, and I mean very poorly for a few seconds then shut off. Before that, it was running fine. I'm thinking it's the timing belt, so we tow the car to my buddy's garage and tear into the front end. Get the timing belt cover off and we see that the bearing housing of the inside idler pulley (the one with the teeth) is blown completely out. The pulley is just riding against its mounting bolt. The timing belt is not broken but it's clear from the timing marks that the engine is out of time. See attached photos. Now for my questions. Is it possible that the belt only jumped a few teeth and that no valve/piston damage has occurred? From the photos you can see how far "off time" the camshafts are with respect to the crank shaft. Does anyone know how far off time you have to go before piston meets valve in a bad way? Also, how can I tell if I have valve/piston damage? Should I just replace the belt, pulleys and hydrollic tensioner, put it back together and just go for it? I'm sort of lost as to what I should do. Thanks very much for your help. The damaged idler pulley The following pics show how off the timing is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zacyork Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 if it was my car i would start by replacing just that pulley and re-time the motor with old belt. see if it runs at all. if it runs ok you might have dodged the bullet. then go and replace the belt and other pulleys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Sucks. Out of curiosity who did the timing belt at 100k? That's probably the most common failure. Perhaps some one is local and can loan for a used cogged idler to try and simply reinstall that belt so that you can check compression. A lot of us get our idler kits from theimportexperts or mizumuto auto (or something like that). And replace them every timing belt change. So you should probably consider that. And we install OEM seals(crank, cam, WP). Perhaps you were very lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 And we have been having database issuse for a week so be patient with the site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdeye Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Sucks. Out of curiosity who did the timing belt at 100k? Yeeaaaahhhh. About that. We're not really sure if the belt was changed at 100k. This was my wife's car. She had it before we met. She knew that she had had some work done but couldn't remember what it was they did or find any of the receipts. It's possible that the belt has never been changed. The belt looked to be in decent shape though. :-\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Well, you'll certainly have receipts now! Use a paint stick and put the time and mileage somewhere. I usually put it on the intake since covers are plastic. Dealers almost never recommend or do the idlers. Because of the cost I believe - customers woul dhave sticker shock. They expect those parts to go 200k. Most of us use a good quality aftermarket kit and replace the idlers every TB change along with other stuff. I believe last quote we had here was like 500-600 bucks for the idlers and tensioner from the dealer. Hopefully someone local sees this and can loan you a used one so you can determine your status. I can send you one for shipping costs on monday but that hardly makes sense. Worst case just order a whole kit because you'll be needing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 slap a new belt on crank it over - it won't take very long actually. check this out. don't even bother putting the covers or even the serpentine belts back on. crank it with just the battery and jumper cables if you have to. will only take a few minutes to install a new pulley and the old belt actually and crank it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdeye Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 slap a new belt on crank it over - it won't take very long actually. check this out. don't even bother putting the covers or even the serpentine belts back on. crank it with just the battery and jumper cables if you have to. will only take a few minutes to install a new pulley and the old belt actually and crank it that way. Good point. Suppose it does start. Does that mean the valves are OK? Do damaged valves make a distinct sound or will the engine simply not start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericem Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 it will run regardless. i think it will be fine its not that far off. you will notice how it sounds right away idle might wander etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) actually a better option is probably to just do a compression test on all 4 cylinders. i mis-spoke a bit since I now see it's a Phase II, I haven't dug into a broken belt Phase II yet. but what i recommended is so easy i'd give it a try anyway. they usually run with bent valves but not good. *edit Edited February 6, 2011 by grossgary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goobysoobs Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 actually a better option is probably to just do a compression test on all 4 cylinders. i mis-spoke a bit since I now see it's a Phase II Ej25, I haven't dug into a broken belt Phase II yet. but what i recommended is so easy i'd give it a try anyway. they usually run with bent valves but not good. looks like a phase II EJ22 to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdeye Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 looks like a phase II EJ22 to me. It is an EJ22. What does Phase II mean? Are those the ones that came after 1997 when the engine became an interference engine? BTW, can someone direct me to detailed info on exactly how to remove the belt and re-time? I'm assuming all the witness marks need to be at 12 o'clock but as far as how to rotate the cam and crank shaft with the belt off without further damaging valves. Thanks. You guys have been great help so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bheinen74 Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Yeeaaaahhhh. About that. We're not really sure if the belt was changed at 100k. This was my wife's car. She had it before we met. She knew that she had had some work done but couldn't remember what it was they did or find any of the receipts. It's possible that the belt has never been changed. The belt looked to be in decent shape though. :-\ in the pic the belt looks old original glazed. never been changed before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thirdeye Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 Just a quick update. Was able to get the new belt and pulleys on. She cranked right up and is running great! Thanks for the help everyone. Also, I might add that I bought a new tensioner pulley from Napa. The inside diameter of the pulley was 32mm. The ID of the old pulley is 35mm so the new pulley would *not* fit on the tensioner arm. I didn't want to buy a new $130 tensioner just for the pulley so I'm still using the old pulley. The bearings seemed to be OK. I'm going to talk to the dealerships about getting the correct ID pulley. Anyone ever experienced anything like that before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
987687 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Most people on here just replace the whole tensioner, as they tend to wear out over time and fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzpile Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 From your pics and my experience with EJ22 I would say you dodged the bullet. fortunately it ran so poor at that point at low rpm that you were able to get into it before damage. You've noted (plugs out etc) that there is only about 1/4 turn off the crank (my sprocket was gored out another 1/4 so added more confusion) with all the timing marks, there are only one set which allows a smooth revolution of the engine. It doesn't seem to repeat without many turns but this is where the info for setting is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzpile Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 My reason for getting into it was that the waterpump was leaking. I just thought open it at TDC and everything would be normal. Well i didn't know crap and it took a lot of pics even aftere repairing the crank sprocket that the setup alignment is OFF and the little Vee cuts (which may be highlited w/paint) were The marks. What you will need to find is the engine manuf date. '97-99 means your eng may be of '99 or mine of '96. This changes the ID of the idlers or what type they fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzpile Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) I reread this thread to find grossgary quoted when he had already editted a response. Don't take this lightly as i among many here have never contributed a comparative fraction. What I'm thinking is that the year is also around when the 2.5 went back to single cams and the engines look similar from the front. When folks don't include the first few #s of a VIN it would make it more open to interpretation. Edited February 17, 2011 by Fuzpile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eppoh Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 If that is the original engine, it is most definitely a phase II motor. I had one identical that went at 108,000miles while running 40mph. Had to replace every valve and get the heads done. Don't mess with half measures on that engine. Replace everything under there. That's belt, water pump, all idlers and tensioner. You can find good parts online far less expensive than Subaru. Do the V belts while you are at it and also; Check the AC belt tensioner pulley. That is what broke on mine and sent the AC belt cutting through the timing belt cover and knocked the timing belt off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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