ABS: Anti-Braking System

[SchwarzeEwigkt]

Statement of Fact: mid-90's ABS implementations suck.

 

I don't like the fact that if I manage to trip the ABS on my Outback that during the 3-5s while the ABS pump is in freakout mode, I effectively can't stop. I've been dealing by doing on of three things:

1. Given enough room, letting off the brakes until the pump lays off and braking again, being careful not to trip the pump
   
2. Given luck, aiming for a dry spot where I know the tires will grab if I'm going sideways
   
3. All else failing, praying that the road will be clear when I sail through the stop sign so I don't get dead and make others the same.

 

I've read that many people have the same problem with cars of similar vintages.

 

Now, I can mitigate this problem a bit by installing better tires, but it's still a huge issue. I freely admit that my tires aren't awesome, but they aren't horrific.

 

Since I can convince the car to stop normally once the pump shuts up, I'd just assume disable the ABS pump. I would, of course, test this rigorously in an empty parking lot or something before disabling a safety system to make sure that my theory that no ABS is better than ABS is sound. I feel, though, since the damned thing does exactly the opposite of ensuring safety, that it's a better way to be. I find it simply unacceptable that it's possible to more or less disable the braking system for 3-5s while you wait for the pump to cycle.

 

The surefire way to do this would be to just pull the fuse for the ABS pump (or it's relay, whichever powers it). That leaves it on old-fashioned, un-festooned brakes.

 

I do, however, like the idea of being able to turn it off at will via a suitably interlocked switch. I propose inserting a normally closed relay into the ABS power circuit that will open when you activate a series of controls, like, say a keyswitch or maybe one of those toggle switches with the big red cover on it.

 

What I don't know is how the ABS pump feels about being rebooted while the car is already on. Does it freak out if, say, I'm driving along at 45mph and decide "I think I'd rather turn the ABS back on now." I doubt it talks to the ECU other than to report "I'm fine, so you can turn the idiot light off," but I wonder if someone has already explored that.

 

I suppose I could put the switch in the engine compartment to you'd have to stop, shut the car down and open the hood to toggle it.

 

 

 

 

 

Dunno. Just musing, triggered by yet another almost-couldn't-stop-for-an-intersection-despite-driving-appropriately-moment that I've had periodically with this car ever since I got it in 2004.

 

What do you guys think?

[Fairtax4me]

Handbrake it. That handle between the seats has saved my rump roast more than once on ice, and even a few times on completely dry pavement.

 

You can disable the ABS if you wan't, but when you do get in an accident and your insurance finds out you disabled a safety system in the car they won't cover a penny of it.

[idosubaru]

Nice re-wording of ABS!

Now, I can mitigate this problem a bit by installing better tires, but it's still a huge issue. I freely admit that my tires aren't awesome, but they aren't horrific.

That's the issue. Trying to run in treacherous weather with sub-par tires.

 

If everything is in working order it will perform well with quality new snow tires, guaranteed.

 

Please vent, I've done it before I'm sure you can find my old post and agree that's it's a scary for this not to be more common knowledge. On steep grades in the mountains - without ABS I can stop, with ABS the car is not capable of stopping. I put new tires on that same car and it performed flawlessly and does now for a friend that now owns it. I now have multiple sets of dedicated snow tires for the winter - amazing how much better it is.

 

Now, how you deal with that is up to you - pull the fuse, get new tires, get dedicated snows (my preference), etc. But there is a known and viable solution. Treacherous weather is what it is and winterizing some vehicles is legit.

Edited February 8, 2011 by grossgary

[wally]

i've had the abs disabled in my '95 for 10 years. i'm able to stop when i want to. frankly, i don't give a damn about steering when i use my brakes; i want to stop.

 

i have ALWAYS used snow tires in the winter, and decent all-season tires the rest of the year. i've always had tires with good tread. during the first minor snow event back when i first had the car (with brand-new snow tires), i could not stop it safely with the abs. f-that.

 

of course, many will disagree, :horse: and claim that the abs is perfectly fine.

 

wally

[SchwarzeEwigkt]

Handbrake it. That handle between the seats has saved my rump roast more than once on ice, and even a few times on completely dry pavement.

Never thought of that. Much of the benefit with none of the drawbacks. Plus, it justifies me rebuilding the parking brake recently.

 

You can disable the ABS if you wan't, but when you do get in an accident and your insurance finds out you disabled a safety system in the car they won't cover a penny of it.

You make a good point. That would be...awkward.

 

That's the issue. Trying to run in treacherous weather with sub-par tires.

When I said "not awesome," I meant "not snows." They're decent all-seasons with plenty of wear left.

 

i've had the abs disabled in my '95 for 10 years. i'm able to stop when i want to. frankly, i don't give a damn about steering when i use my brakes; i want to stop.

 

i have ALWAYS used snow tires in the winter, and decent all-season tires the rest of the year. i've always had tires with good tread. during the first minor snow event back when i first had the car (with brand-new snow tires), i could not stop it safely with the abs. f-that.

This is how I feel right now. As soon as the pump kicks in, it's all over. Once the pump stops helping, everything is fine.

 

 

For now, I'll probably not do anything. Snow tires don't really fit in the budget at the moment.

[987687]

Get real tires, and you'll be fine.

I have a winter set of wheels and a summer set of wheels....

I don't use ABS mostly because my GL doesn't have it, so it annoys me on the Legacy. But on the Legacy it isn't horrible with GOOD TIRES.

 

There's a billion threads about people hating ABS because it isn't god, and make you stop on a dime on ice with bald tires

[SchwarzeEwigkt]

I don't expect that at all. What I do expect is that it doesn't make it worse.

 

What I keep saying is that once the pump cuts in, you can't stop at all until it gives up. Once it's no longer running, I can stop fine.

 

This says to me two things:

1. The tires are fine. Yes, snows would be better, but that's not the problem,
   
2. The ABS system is overreacting.

[Manarius]

Having been in both situations, I would gladly take ABS over no ABS.

 

Lack of ABS put me into a guard rail with good tires. ABS and crappy tires kept me out of the side of a public safety officer.

 

Mid 90's ABS isn't as good as it is now, but it sure is faster than I am in a panic situation. Generally, my thought when panicking is "OMG HOW AM I GOING TO STOP!?", not "Okay, first I need to pump really fast and then pull on the e-brake". When I'm sliding into an object, I'd rather focus on how to get away from that object, not how to pump the brakes and hopefully pull the e-brake in time and hope that the e-brake doesn't trash my transmission in the process.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Manarius

[987687]

I don't expect that at all. What I do expect is that it doesn't make it worse.

 

What I keep saying is that once the pump cuts in, you can't stop at all until it gives up. Once it's no longer running, I can stop fine.

 

This says to me two things:

1. The tires are fine. Yes, snows would be better, but that's not the problem,
   
2. The ABS system is overreacting.

 

if you use threshold braking you can actually lock the wheels with ABS.

[lesstutrey]

also says that a wheel speed sensor could be out... but that would probably make your ABS light be on all the time.. or throw some kind of code... i would think.. or not, i like to think a lot of things would throw a code and they don't. I dunno what year you have so i dunno if it's OBDI or OBDII, but WSS are just magnets. They can go bad.

Edited February 9, 2011 by lesstutrey

[987687]

Usually the wheel sensors either work, or they don't. There's not much middle ground with those.

And if they don't work (or get jammed full of snow...) ABS stops working and the light comes on.

[idosubaru]

This says to me two things:

1. The tires are fine. Yes, snows would be better, but that's not the problem,
   
2. The ABS system is overreacting.

first assumption is incorrect. the second is correct.

 

i already mentioned a nearly identical situation in the first post - this car would stop fine with the ebrake and had as you described "good all seasons with plenty of tread:

 

On steep grades in the mountains - without ABS I can stop, with ABS the car is not capable of stopping. I put new tires on that same car and it performed flawlessly

 

good tires will solve this, particularly new tires. rubber degrades with time and that affects snow traction the most. tires with a few years are terrible in snow.

 

yes, as I know what you're saying and have experienced it and agree with you in the first post it's crazy that the ABS gets so whacky and confused - the ABS is overreacting and less than efficient with poor tires, it's good to know. but now that you do know you'll have to bite the bullet for proper performance....just like rotating Subaru AWD tires, it's something that has to be done for the system to not be damaged.

[SchwarzeEwigkt]

There's a huge bit getting missed here, so I'll say it again.

 

I can stop just fine when the ABS pump isn't running. While it runs, I can't stop. Once it stops, I can stop again as long as I don't trip the pump again.

 

So, to be clear: the pump running is the problem.

 

My point is reinforced by the fact that using the e-brake would help. Since it's independent of the ABS controlled main brakes, it's not fettered by them and will provide more (read: "any") braking force than the ABS pump will allow.

[Gloyale]

There's a huge bit getting missed here, so I'll say it again.

 

I can stop just fine when the ABS pump isn't running. While it runs, I can't stop. Once it stops, I can stop again as long as I don't trip the pump again.

 

I hear you.

 

ABS is great for panic situations on pavement.

 

But in snow, ice, or mud, the Subaru ABS is worthless.

 

The tires lock too easily, and the ABS will not let you fully apply the brakes for that last 5mph or stopping required.

 

It happens in snow, and also going downhill in mud when I go wheeling.

 

Simple solution is too put a BLOWN fuse in the ABS fuse holder. That way it doesn't LOOK like you modified it in case of accident.

 

If you inserted in some wires there with it, you could run them up though a fuse and swicth to enable disable the system. Turning it on and off while driving is not a problem and won't make the pump do anything.

 

I personally have disabled my ABS entirely in favor of the ABF (Anti-lock Brake Foot)

[SchwarzeEwigkt]

Good idea. Thanks for aligning with me on that one.

 

So, yeah. Here's the plan: I'll consider disabling the ABS with a blown fuse, but I'll have to think about that one. My ABF works just fine considering my experiences with my first car and fiancé's car and their lack of ABS.

 

I'll get a set of snows when finances allow. I wholeheartedly support the idea of dedicated snows and have a set for my other car from back when it was my only car. 200% better that way.

 

Thanks for the input, everyone!

[idosubaru]

There's a huge bit getting missed here, so I'll say it again.

 

I can stop just fine when the ABS pump isn't running. While it runs, I can't stop. Once it stops, I can stop again as long as I don't trip the pump again.

 

So, to be clear: the pump running is the problem.

 

My point is reinforced by the fact that using the e-brake would help. Since it's independent of the ABS controlled main brakes, it's not fettered by them and will provide more (read: "any") braking force than the ABS pump will allow.

I dont' think i missed anything - I had your symptoms and have mentioned it twice: my 1997 Impreza Outback did the same thing - it would not come to a stop as long as the ABS pump was activating. Same thing, exactly as your saying...it won't stop. Let off the brakes enough or use the ebrake and it would stop fine. Same thing. Runs awesome in the

snow now with good tires.

 

You can find my old thread that sounds comically similar to this - I'm totally PO'ed about it, blaming the ABS, talking about how stupid ABS is with my tons of tread all seasons...then when I get new tires the car performs great.

 

Definitely disable them, I've been there and know the feeling and it's definitely nothing close to safe how limited the ABS system is.

 

I'd like to put a similar set of tires on a newer subaru and see how similar or not they are.

Edited February 9, 2011 by grossgary

[wardssix]

05 legacy with brand new continentals ... ABS sucks as well on snow covered roads

[Fairtax4me]

You have Conti-Touring Contacts? Those suck in any weather. Quieter ride and better dry grip than Goodyear Eagles, but nothing worth getting excited over. ContiPro Contact is better in rain than the Touring, but still not worth anything in snow. The tread blocks are too close together and the rubber compound is too "hot" for good grip in snow/cold.

Snow tires have a "cold" rubber compound that is still very pliable in temperatures below freezing which allows them to grab better. Combined with larger spacing between tread blocks to allow more snow between them.

[wardssix]

Not sure of exact model of Conti. They did fine on my 98 Outback though. And anything is better than the factory's, Bridgestones if i recall?

[Setright]

I have mentioned it other threads on this topic and I am not shy:

 

 

Press HARD on the brake pedal!

 

Fit snow tyres.

 

 

The brake pedal vibration is there to be squeezed into submission. Just stomp on the pedal and don't let off just because the pump starts. The ABS needs all the line-pressure it can get to stop the car quickly.

 

Don't fall into the easy assumption that the pump-cycling means the system is braking as hard as it can. The pulses are timed. The intervals where full pressure is sent to the brake calipers, that's where the system needs YOU to be mashing the brake pedal.

 

My Impreza is from 1999, but I used to own a 1990 Legacy. Winter tyres and lots pedal pressure = short stopping distance.

 

 

Presently, I am a big fan of Continental winter tyres, TS810 / TS 830. But there are pleny of other good winter tyres out there. Nokian, Michelin, Bridgestone.

 

 

Tyres are the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT component on the car.

[MilesFox]

My 94 gt wagon will now and agian wig out on dry pavement from a slow stop. The abs light comes on, and then goes off.

 

One time i parked my car in the garage, came out 20 min later, and the abs pump was wigging out creating a buzzing sound, withthe car off and parked. I had to unplug the pump and put a charger on the battery.

 

ABS is whack, and so are automatic seat belts, and anything that is 'by wire' instead of a mechanical linkage. You might as well send the car out to do errands itself, less the driver, withthe way thay are designing them these days. my 2 cents..

[wally]

first assumption is incorrect.

 

good tires will solve this, particularly new tires. rubber degrades with time and that affects snow traction the most. tires with a few years are terrible in snow.

 

yes, as I know what you're saying and have experienced it and agree with you in the first post it's crazy that the ABS gets so whacky and confused - the ABS is overreacting and less than efficient with poor tires, it's good to know. but now that you do know you'll have to bite the bullet for proper performance....just like rotating Subaru AWD tires, it's something that has to be done for the system to not be damaged.

 

you'd really consider, based on the described circumstances, that the abs system works fine and that the tires are at fault? my opinion is that you cannot come to that conclusion using logic.

 

fact: with the existing tires, the car cannot be stopped satisfactorily or safely with the abs system operational given the described road conditions.

 

fact: with the abs system disabled, using the same exact tires, the car can be stopped safely/satisfactorily given the described road conditions.

 

 

which conclusion would be logical?

 

conclusion 1: the tires are at fault

 

conclusion 2: the abs system doesn't function properly for all anticipated normal road conditions, ice and snow being normal for the north and northeast.

 

Edited February 10, 2011 by wally

[987687]

you'd really consider, based on the described circumstances, that the abs system works fine and that the tires are at fault? my opinion is that you cannot come to that conclusion using logic.

 

fact: with the existing tires, the car cannot be stopped satisfactorily or safely with the abs system operational given the described road conditions.

 

fact: with the abs system disabled, using the same exact tires, the car can be stopped safely/satisfactorily given the described road conditions.

 

conclusion 1: the tires are at fault

 

conclusion 2: the abs system doesn't function properly for all anticipated normal road conditions, ice and snow being normal for the north and northeast.

 

 

What are you trying to say? Get better tires and disable ABS? That's what it sounds like.

 

If I, just some random schmuck off the street, can stop the car better with my ABF than the computer can stop the car, Subaru needs to make their system work better.

[wally]

sorry. should have indicated "choose one of the following conclusions". i've edited it to reflect that.

 

based on the information/descriptions, i'd choose conclusion 2.

 

 

as indicated earlier, i've already disabled the abs for the exact same reason. that was 10 years ago.

[Manarius]

My 94 gt wagon will now and agian wig out on dry pavement from a slow stop. The abs light comes on, and then goes off.

 

One time i parked my car in the garage, came out 20 min later, and the abs pump was wigging out creating a buzzing sound, withthe car off and parked. I had to unplug the pump and put a charger on the battery.

 

ABS is whack, and so are automatic seat belts, and anything that is 'by wire' instead of a mechanical linkage. You might as well send the car out to do errands itself, less the driver, withthe way thay are designing them these days. my 2 cents..

For your ABS problem, read the attachment in this thread: http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=54156&highlight=abs

 

I'll take safe over sorry and I'll keep my ABS fuse in and good tires on my car.