xbeerd Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) Hi Everyone... so we just had our 00 outback totalled, and i bought the car back at salvage value to retrieve the engine we had just put in about year and a half ago. or maybe it was 2 yrs, whatever. anyways.. I was going to look into doin the EJ swap with the ej251, however i cant find any info on the swap with a ej25. i figured it would be worth a shot since i have the motor, wiring, and ecu for free (well. technically $800, but as far as im concerned, it was free) my car is a 92 loyale w/ a 4wd dual range. anyone have any thoughts or advise regarding this EJ swap? please dont riddle with "ej25 sucks" etc. its a good SOHC EJ25 with about 90k on it. few questions i had thought of.. -tranny handle the added torque? -engine size vs the ej22? they have the same stroke, so i would expect the 2 engines to be very close if not the same size. things i know i need to get.. EJ adapter plate, ea/xt6 flywheel, machined, xt6 pressure plate slim radiator fan etc Blah blah, stuff listed in ej swap pdf and read it.. again... and again.. thoughts? any input (besides "ej25 sucks!" appreciated. Edited March 2, 2011 by xbeerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted March 2, 2011 Author Share Posted March 2, 2011 would i be better off findin a manual ej trans and swapping that in along with all the driveshaft, axle, and or knuckle fun? i obviously have to do more research on teh ej swap itself as it probably shows, but just looking for caveats of swapping in a ej25 mainly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
obk25xt Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Do it! If you plan on keeping the Loyale for a length of time. With the $$ you'll spend on the adapter/flywheel/clutch stuff you could probably (maybe?) afford to install an EJ trans as an alternative. The hurdles for the tranny swap along with the engine would be the trans crossmember and driveline, and also most likely changing the ring & pinion in the rear diff to match the trans as well. Truth is I'm not 100% of the difference in cost, it's really all relative to how much you have to pay for the parts, and how much of the work you can/will do yourself.As far as will the EA transmission hold up to the added power/torque? This is mostly going to be directly related to your power transferring abilities (clutch operation!) and driving style (Steve McQueen or Forrest Gump!) Swapping of the knuckles/suspension is not going to be necessary to swap the transmission. If you were to go the route of the 5 lug then you would be in need of the key to the 5 lug swap, which is the XT6 rear hubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted March 2, 2011 Author Share Posted March 2, 2011 great to hear a positive response. LOL. if i were to do an manual EJ trans, would there be any thing to wire up for the awd electrically? i havent ever had a ej with a manual trans. right now its lookin like the standard ej swap is what i'll do with the ej25. i can accumulate the parts over time, and once i get the wiring harness out i can start working on that in my spare time, i have the 2k Legacy manual printed out so i'll know what wires are what pretty clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lostinthe202 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 While I will qualify this by saying that I haven't actually done this swap so I can't really say for sure if the EA trans would stand up over time, what I can say is that the internals of an EA and EJ trans are nearly identical except for one major difference. The EA trans has better bearing support for the input shaft because if it's dual range nature. The dual range happens first thing so directly behind the input shaft seal is an additional bearing that the EJ doesn't have. The EJ cases have the space for a dual range setup since they sell a dual range EJ in other countries (AUS for one) but for us in the states, this leaves a lot of unsupported shaft which I believe can lead to early bearing failure depending on how you drive your car. I've read of plenty cases here, and experienced that first hand. And by early I'm talking around 100k miles. So that being said, if you stick with your current EA trans you may already have many more miles on it than if you found an EJ trans. I guess that makes it a bit of a toss up, but consider that you'd probably be fine with an EA trans with less than 200k with no known issues and you'd have less to do in terms of the swap. Good luck! Will- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted March 2, 2011 Author Share Posted March 2, 2011 While I will qualify this by saying that I haven't actually done this swap so I can't really say for sure if the EA trans would stand up over time, what I can say is that the internals of an EA and EJ trans are nearly identical except for one major difference. The EA trans has better bearing support for the input shaft because if it's dual range nature. The dual range happens first thing so directly behind the input shaft seal is an additional bearing that the EJ doesn't have. The EJ cases have the space for a dual range setup since they sell a dual range EJ in other countries (AUS for one) but for us in the states, this leaves a lot of unsupported shaft which I believe can lead to early bearing failure depending on how you drive your car. I've read of plenty cases here, and experienced that first hand. And by early I'm talking around 100k miles. So that being said, if you stick with your current EA trans you may already have many more miles on it than if you found an EJ trans. I guess that makes it a bit of a toss up, but consider that you'd probably be fine with an EA trans with less than 200k with no known issues and you'd have less to do in terms of the swap. Good luck! Will- thanks for the input, my trans has about 215k on it, but it doesnt have any issues besides the shifter bushings are worn a bit. i think i'll go with it, and if it craps out a year after wards, then i'll investigate the EJ 5 spd. sucks we dont have a EJ DR in the states! damn aussies! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renob123 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 You should look at an EJ251 next to an EJ22. The EJ22 has much smaller heads. I'm not sure how an EJ251 would fit in an EA82. Read the swap writeup. I can tell you haven't because you think you need an EJ flywheel when keeping the EA82 transmission. As for transmission selection, that depends on what your goals are with the car. Jacob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted March 2, 2011 Author Share Posted March 2, 2011 i think that was just a typo on my end, i need an xt6 or ea flywheel. i did however re-read the swap manual. but yeah that was one of my questions, regarding the width of the engines. i'll have to do some measuring to make sure it'll fit widthwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renob123 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 i think that was just a typo on my end, i need an xt6 or ea flywheel. i did however re-read the swap manual. but yeah that was one of my questions, regarding the width of the engines. i'll have to do some measuring to make sure it'll fit widthwise The width is about the same, I think. It's how tall the heads are that may be an issue. Jacob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted March 2, 2011 Author Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) The width is about the same, I think. It's how tall the heads are that may be an issue. Jacob hmm. like the case i might not be able to close my hood!?? or fit between the frame rails? are we both looking at it differently? IE.. from the block outward or vertically as we stand in front of it. Edited March 2, 2011 by xbeerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renob123 Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 hmm. like the case i might not be able to close my hood!?? or fit between the frame rails? are we both looking at it differently? IE.. from the block outward or vertically as we stand in front of it. I'm talking height, as in we stand in front of it. The heads won't keep you from closing the hood, but they'll be pretty close to the frame rails. We can fit EJ22s into Brats because the EJ22 heads are so small, both from the block outward and vertically. EA82s are bigger, but then, the EJ251 heads are bigger, mainly in the vertical way. If you're going to do some measuring, just make sure you get that dimension down as well. Jacob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted March 2, 2011 Author Share Posted March 2, 2011 ok gotcha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschool Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I put a ej AWD trans in my 87 gl and it was easy, also I'm putting a 86 gl together. It consists of all wrx tranny and rear diff, 5 lug conversionand yes a wrx motor will fit between the frame rails.If you can dream it, it can be built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted March 3, 2011 Author Share Posted March 3, 2011 dreaming is easy, funding the dream is another story... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Quite honestly, I'd think about putting the 4eat in with the EJ swap. The loyale transmission tunnel should be big enough to fit it, loyale 4eat crossmembers, driveshaft/axles and mounts should be pretty easy to find, and you have all the wiring and such you need in your donor car. The torque converter in an automatic will go a long way towards making up not having low-range off road. Plus you have 4.44 final drive instead of 3.9 in the D/R trans. A good transmission cooler in front of the radiator and a skid plate under the trans pan and you should be able to beat the snots out of that trans without worry. A 5spd not so much, I trashed a bunch of them with an EJ22. That also eliminates the clutch problem and the adapter plate. EJ251's are ok engines, it's the EJ25d's that blow the headgaskets internally. The SOHC EJ25 heads are huge though, and they take up a lot of real estate between the frame rails. It may be a snug fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted March 3, 2011 Author Share Posted March 3, 2011 (edited) only problem with that is there seems to be an issue with the trans, keeps getting the AT oil temp light, (not flashing 16 times), and throws a code for the throttle sensor input low or something, it comes and goes. i've not been able to figure it out, tried 2 different TPS's and cant find a problem with the wiring. :-\ AT Temp light goes flashing, tranny goes to limp mode, has a smell of overheating fluid, i've changed the fluid and filter recently and thought it was fixed but to no avail the problem has returned. i dont really want a auto trans tho. i'd find a 5spd if anything. Edited March 3, 2011 by xbeerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted March 3, 2011 Author Share Posted March 3, 2011 oh also.. i was lookin at the engine vs the ea82 and i think there should be like 2" of clearance with the EJ25 between the frame rails. i have to get a measurement from the trans forward yet tho, i was eyeballing that and it looks like it should fit as well. even with the ej adapter plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renob123 Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 oh also.. i was lookin at the engine vs the ea82 and i think there should be like 2" of clearance with the EJ25 between the frame rails. i have to get a measurement from the trans forward yet tho, i was eyeballing that and it looks like it should fit as well. even with the ej adapter plate. I hadn't realized the EA82 was that much wider in there. You won't have a problem with the trans-forward dimension. Even if you did, that just means you move the radiator fan(s) to the front of the radiator to gain more clearance. Jacob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted March 4, 2011 Share Posted March 4, 2011 You'll have the harness apart when your stripping it for the swap. It would be easiest to fix the throttle input between the ECU and the TCU at that point. I can't recommend an automatic enough for off-road. It's a better setup, and you won't be breaking it all the time. I can send you a pile of broken d/r 5mt parts if that would help change your mind. Loyales also had the 4eat as an optional transmission, so all the factory parts to bolt it in are available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 you think all the issue/problem with the auto trans is wiring? if its a known issue, i'd love to see some data on it, i've searched here, subaruoutback.org, subaruforester.org etc etc, and couldnt find anything helpful i guess i wouldnt be super opposed to putting in the awd auto trans. a guy nearby has all the mounting brackets required for it. this car doesnt see much offroad since its my daily driver/fun car/only car, it'd be mild offroad at the most. no crawling around on big rocks or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 (edited) throws a code for the throttle sensor input low or something. i've not been able to figure it out, tried 2 different TPS's and cant find a problem with the wiring. :-\ Having the actual code would help, but yeah, there's a problem with the wiring, computer, or sensors if it's throwing a code. It's not the transmissions fault if it's getting the wrong signals from the engine. Should be easily fixable, esp with the harness all taken apart for the swap. Even with mild offroad, the auto is much better than a manual. Not having to slip the clutch or get abusive with speed to make it over things is a huge advantage. Being able to use a wiring mod to lock it in true 4wd is a big advantage over the AWD manual transmissions, where you can get stuck with one wheel in the air and the other 3 with good traction. Plus, the auto is way stronger than any 5spd subaru put out. Edited March 7, 2011 by WoodsWagon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 Having the actual code would help, but yeah, there's a problem with the wiring, computer, or sensors if it's throwing a code. It's not the transmissions fault if it's getting the wrong signals from the engine. Should be easily fixable, esp with the harness all taken apart for the swap. Even with mild offroad, the auto is much better than a manual. Not having to slip the clutch or get abusive with speed to make it over things is a huge advantage. Being able to use a wiring mod to lock it in true 4wd is a big advantage over the AWD manual transmissions, where you can get stuck with one wheel in the air and the other 3 with good traction. Plus, the auto is way stronger than any 5spd subaru put out. let me see if i can find my old thread about the tranny codes etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 (edited) here's the original thread i started back in the day. same ************ off and on. now i may be able to investigate it better, but it'll be tough to try out since the car has no doors, front bumper, fenders, lighting.. LOL. http://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/20304-2000-outback-cel-oil-temp-light-constantly-flashes-2.html i will tho attemp later on to follow the wiring around and what not. also with the cel that was mentioned in that link. IIRC that also came along with a trans code 31. (which was supposed to go away after the P0122 code is fixed per the subaru fsm for 2000 legacy/outback) Edited March 8, 2011 by xbeerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xbeerd Posted March 8, 2011 Author Share Posted March 8, 2011 poked around at the ecu/tcm wiring last night, inside the car the wiring looks brand new. outside the car, the wiring is a little dirty but the connectors and such look fine. there is stress on the TPS wiring tho, I think i am going to lengthen it and see if that makes any difference. but im not really going to be able to drive the car around enough to get it to chugalug thru the gears in its current state.:-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Ok, so you had the engine replaced and the problem cropped up after that. You said the wiring looked strained where the TPS connector is? I bet some tech in a hurry swapping the engine was yanking on the wiring while they were trying to get the connector to pop off. There's probably a break right at the crimp on one of the pins in the connector, or the pin is pulled back. The problem fixes its self each time you clean, adjust, replace or otherwise wongleflute with the TPS because you move the wiring and connector around at the same time. This gives you a temporary connection, until the vibration of the engine causes the wire to lose connection again. Easiest would be to chop the TPS connector and the longest amount of pigtail you can with it off a junkyard car, then use weathertight butt connector crimps to splice it into your harness. Or solder and weathertight shrinktubing. Weathertight connections have a hot glue like substance inside them that seals the connection when you melt the shrink tubing on the outside. Replacing the connector and 4" or so of wire connected to it should fix a strained wiring problem. When undoing connectors, you only pull or pry on the body of the connector while holding the release tab down. Never pull on the wiring or this kind of problem develops, and they are a pain to diagnose. Looks like you're most of the way there already though. A failing TPS signal will really confuse a transmission, as that's it's main input from you on what you want it to do. It doesn't know if you're trying to accelerate, cruise, or coast, so it can't decide what gear to go in or to lock up the torque converter clutch or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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