ericcroll Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Okay, so here's the deal... The car is a 97 OBW (160000, AT) with an EJ22 from a 96 Legacy (130000). The car died after running cold for about 5 seconds... no warning. I suspected the timing belt, even though I put a new one on about 10,000 miles ago when I did the swap. Sure enough, the belt has about 6 or 7 teeth stripped off of it. Now I know that this is a non-interference engine, but when the crank and driver's side cam are aligned at TDC, there is interference, which is probably why it stripped my belt. So I started pulling the head, but am now stuck. First of all, do I have to pull the engine to remove the head? It seems to be awfully tight with those four-foot-long head bolts coming out into the frame. Also, have you ever heard of a failure like this before? All of the reading I've done indicates this engine is bullet-proof. What happened??? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zacyork Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 you are going to want to pull the motor out to work on the heads. engine stand helps a lot for rebuild. i dont quite understand what you mean there is interference at TDC. did you replace the belt and turn the motor and it wont go pass TDC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 (edited) Drivers side cam there will be valve spring pressure on the cam at TDC. Passenger side the valves are all closed at TDC so there is no spring pressure on the cam. You can turn the passenger side easily about 30° before the cam lobes start to push on the rocker arms. You will not be able to do so with the drivers side cam until you get the cam ~180° off TDC position. Stripped teeth on a new belt could indicate either idler sprocket failure, impoper belt tension, or foreign material in the belt or sprockets. Or it could just be a faulty belt. With all the head bolts loose pull the head away from the block and lift at an angle to remove from the engine compartment. Edited March 6, 2011 by Fairtax4me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 I HEAR you can do them in the car after removing the pitch stopper. And I've sold s few pitch stopper/dog bones to folks who have broke them doing them this way. I'd simply yank the engine. Did you do anything to the engine before dropping it in? That'll help figure out what may have gone wrong. Including too much sealer somewhere and a cam seizing. More common than you'd think. As pointed out the drivers side has compression at TDC and the pass doesn't no matter a 2.2 or 25. Tell us brands of stuff as well. I use Dayco belts for instance. Over in the VW world there is a fella with a bunch of websites selling CRAP as good parts. Cheap folks are getting burned. And a VW TDI headjob makes a Subaru look awful cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericcroll Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 Well, that explains the interference at TDC on the driver's side. I think that I bought the belt at Advance, but I don't remember for sure. When I got the belt off, all of the idlers seems to spin freely, so I could not detect a failure there. I didn't do anything else to the engine. I considered overhauling the front end when I did the belt, but it seemed fairly easy to get at, and I was kind of tight on cash at the time, so I just put it off. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Do the cam sprockets spin? Water pump? What's the status of the tensioner? How did you compress it? Is it wet at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericcroll Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 Everything spun freely... cams, idlers, water pump, etc. The tensioner seemed fine. I did not notice any moisture. It was compressed somewhat slowly... not over ten minutes, but maybe a minute or two with slow pressure in a vise. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 For your next belt order an entire timing kit from TheImportExperts on Ebay. Belt all idlers and water pump. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1990-1996-Subaru-Legacy-Impreza-2-2-Timing-Belt-Kit-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5642e4ff7bQQitemZ370489491323QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_2800wt_958 Get a head gasket from Subaru. Get your head surfaces 100% shiny clean metal before installing. You'll need to follow the bolt torque procedure to a T. If you have a Haynes manual the procedure outlined there is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 Well, that explains the interference at TDC on the driver's side. What do you mean by this? Yes there should be valve spring drag on the driver's side (left) cam sprocket with the timing marks aligned (which does NOT occur at TDC). This is normal. If you pulled the head because of this..... you shouldn't have. Sounds like a simple belt failure - I would suspect oil contamination. That will soften and destroy the belt in short order. Teeth being ripped off is a sign of degraded rubber or a really cheap POS belt. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 One of the things I always insist on an OEM part from Subaru is the timing belt and maybe the tensioner. Just my 2 cents worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 My advance has a store brand belt - they are crap. Drive rite? Crap! I've always been afraid to install them even as accessory belts. They also handle Dayco - I think a good belt. If you get theimportexperts kit it'll come with a MitsubOshi belt. I've used them on several non-interference Subaru's with no issues that I know of. They swear they are the OEM manufacturer. But for interference engines I still buy a Dayco. They also have a kit with cam seals they swear are the brown ones form the OEM manufacturer but I go to the dealer for the seals, HG's and WP gasket. Although I just did get a kit for a friends 02 and got the WP from them and the gasket looked to be the same style as the dealer (rubber coated metal) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericcroll Posted March 6, 2011 Author Share Posted March 6, 2011 I think Import Export is where I got the belt kit this time, but the idlers that they sent me were wrong; they would require a slightly shorter bolt, or a flat washer as a spacer. I definitely have interference at TDC. Are you saying that there should be some spring interference, but not at TDC? Everything was dry inside of the timing belt covers, so I doubt that it was oil contamination, and the belt only had 10,000 miles on it. I originally thought that it might have been a tensioner failure, but that seemed to be fine when I removed it. I have compressed and released it a couple of times, and it seems to be responding well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 What do you mean by interference? You will not be able to spin the camshaft a full revolution by hand if that's what you are expecting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 6, 2011 Share Posted March 6, 2011 have you loosened the head bolts yet? i would probably have hung a new belt and done a compression test, looking for bent valves. we had this discussion a while back, a 96 with an interference engine. i read recently that transition years are always questionable. they may start using the ''new'' engine before they actually start producing the ''new'' model year. if you have already loosened the bolts, there may be an indication on the piston. or... dropped a valve? that would be rare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 I definitely have interference at TDC. How did you determine this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted March 7, 2011 Share Posted March 7, 2011 How did you determine this? My thought is that he's caling "resistence" "interference" until "interference" is proven. And is the head isn't undone hanging a new belt is definately the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericcroll Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 I and a friend of mine who knows a little bit more about it than I do pumped air into the cylinders and determined that there is a valve leak someplace. We had air escaping from one cylinder while pumping air into the other when valves should have been closed. The head is already loose, but I can't seem to get it out of there. I haven't taken the pitch roll brace off yet, and I haven't started pulling motor mounts either. Is there any way that I can get the head off without pulling the motor? Why did they make those bolts so damn long?!? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericcroll Posted March 7, 2011 Author Share Posted March 7, 2011 My thought is that he's caling "resistence" "interference" until "interference" is proven. And is the head isn't undone hanging a new belt is definately the way to go. Yeah, resistance = interference in my world as of right now. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1-3-2-4 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 What do you mean by interference? You will not be able to spin the camshaft a full revolution by hand if that's what you are expecting. heh back when I did the TB on my 95 EJ22 to get the cam set right I spun the driver's side cam a whole 360 with my bare hands with no gloves.. Sure I said a few words but man my hands were a bright red! Also good to know all the good things about the dayco belts.. I had an order come in for the Alternator belt but sadly my wagon never saw the new belt :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 (edited) I suppose you could if you were dead set determined, or a "Tuff man", but I'm neither, plus I'm lazy. I just use a wrench. Is there any way that I can get the head off without pulling the motor? Why did they make those bolts so damn long?!? Pull the bolts out until they hit the frame, pull the head back about 2 inches, rotate the top of the head towards the block as you lift up and pull away from the block. Edited March 8, 2011 by Fairtax4me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericcroll Posted March 13, 2011 Author Share Posted March 13, 2011 Well, the engine is out, the head is off, and there was definitely a piston-valve collision, Both driver's side pistons have intake valve scars on them. For a non-interference engine, that's a pretty neat trick. So, the stamp on the top of the engine block says 3608. There is also a printed number behind the driver's side cam sprocket that says 98 3 09. Can anybody identify either of these numbers so that I can find the true origin of this motor? Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 13, 2011 Share Posted March 13, 2011 There is also a printed number behind the driver's side cam sprocket that says 98 3 09. Can anybody identify either of these numbers so that I can find the true origin of this motor? if that is a date then it's already been swapped. but i doubt it is a date. on the passenger side of the bell housing about mid point, hi / lo, there should be a vin etched into the casing. you want to look for the letter in the 10th position, just before the last string of seven numbers. S=95 T=96 V=97 W=98 X=99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericcroll Posted March 14, 2011 Author Share Posted March 14, 2011 I thought about it being a date, but it didn't seem right to me either. It is a single-cam, single-exhaust port, with EGR: I thought that only happened in 96 with the EJ22s. I'm going to check the VIN tonight. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 If it has solid lifters with roller-rockers - it's a '97 or '98 engine. All EJ22's from '95 to '98 have EGR if they came from automatic's and all '96 and up will be single-port exhaust. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted March 14, 2011 Share Posted March 14, 2011 The EJ22 was single port from 96 to 99 (?). I wonder if the single port heads are the interference design? 97 and after the 2.2 is definitely interference, but I haven't tried to find out exactly what the difference is between 96 an 97. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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