dmorrow Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 (edited) Dear all: I have a 2003 Legacy GT, 5 spd manual, with 86,000 miles. About a month ago I started noticing that my car was not smooth making sharp right or left turns like into a parking spot; it was almost lurching, like something was grabbing the wheels. It seems to be coming from the rear. I went to do the dealer and they said it was the transfer clutch. They put in a special lubricant and told me to do figure 8's to try to get the lubricant into the appropriate areas. I did that and it's not getting better. When I do figure 8's or after I have been driving (ie engine hot) the rear wheels seem to seize up and actual skid on tight turns. I've stopped doing figure 8's because it's not working and seems to be getting worse. I have tried reading about this, but it's very confusing. I don't think my car has a transfer clutch (does it?), but does have a viscous coupling system. I don't really understand the difference. I also read that you can inactivate the 4WD and put into FWD with a fuse. I did that and the problem does not go away. So a few questions: 1. The dealer said it would be around $1800 to fix this. Seems very high. What do you think? 2. Is it bad for me to drive the car like this? 3. Is there any way to positively diagnose this problem? 4. Any other info would be most appreciated. Thanks much for your time!! Really appreciated!! D Edited April 6, 2011 by dmorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankosolder2 Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 There's the possibility of two different issues here. 1.) Viscous coupler in your trans could be failing. (This is a manual trans, so no clutch packs like the auto trans.) If so, there's no "additive" that would make a difference, as it's a sealed unit. You just need to replace it or the entire trans. 2. If your car is equipped with a limited slip rear differential ( I don't know if it is) the internal clutch packs could be binding. In which case, adding an additive to the rear diff could help. Failing that, the rear diff will need replacement or repair. Are all your tires well matched in circumference? Nathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 (edited) the FWD fuse is only for the auto trans cars. if you have torque bind, and all of your tires are a matched set , the same size and the same inflation, then your viscous coupling is shot. pretty rare for a car w/ 86k miles. are you tires all good? did you have a mis-matched set for a while? you can replace or have the viscous coupling replaced. i don't know the price (probably $500 - $600) or how difficult, i'm an A/T guy. but i know it can be done in the drive way. the part number is / maybe 38913AA101. double check at http://opposedforces.com/parts and then price it here: www.subarugenuineparts.com or call a dealer. Edited March 27, 2011 by johnceggleston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorrow Posted March 27, 2011 Author Share Posted March 27, 2011 Thanks for the quick replies so far. I have always had four matched tires (Michelin Exalto Pilot A/S) and keep them in great shape and properly inflatted. Do you think it's bad to drive the car like this? Or best to get it repaired quickly? Tx! D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edrach Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I went three months with a bad viscous coupler on my wife's '99 Forester. I couldn't find a working used coupler or gearbox in that time so I finally bit the bullet and bought a new one from Subaru; with the internet discount it was $535 plus local tax. I brought it to my friendly neighborhood mechanic and he charged me another $150 to install it (I think it took him 3 hours). I think that $1800 estimate you got is quite high. If this is the same dealer who gave you an additive to add, I think I'd find another dealer or shop. Do a little searching here; there was someone else with similar issues recently who wound up replacing the VC himself. It might be helpful. If you've never had uneven tire wear, this is quite an unusual problem for this mileage. Any chance that you had the car towed on a hook dragging the rear wheels behind; that will certainly cause the VC to fail prematurely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorrow Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Hi edrach: Thanks for the story about your Forester. And no, never had the car towed. I guess I just got unlucky with this one. I will push back on the dealer and call other dealers to see what they would charge. Tx! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 automatics and manuals work completely differently so that's why you see different information, it is confusing to keep it all straight. if you are the original owner and it has been that well maintained and not towed improperly i would double check to make sure the diagnosis is correct. rear differentials can fail (it's rare but so is this for a well maintained car). particularly if it's a VLSD it could be locking up since it's the rear wheels you are hearing chirping. yours being a manual trans has a sealed viscous coupler and additives can not help because the fluid in the trans doesn't get to the unit that has failed - it's sealed and non-serviceable. odd that a dealer would put in an additive that has zero percent chance of helping. it doesn't make any sense and if they charged you for it, it was money thrown away. maybe it was miscommunicated or something so i'll apologize for cynicism but i have to wonder if the dealer attempted the "cheap" fix in the hopes that you'd bite on the high quote to fix this. "wow, that was really nice of them to try to fix it cheaply and not sell me on a huge repair - i'll now fork them $1,800 to fix it". it's actually not a hard job. it does not require removing the transmission so it's not that difficult nor does it require any special tools or a lift/jack to get it out. easily done by any competent mechanically inclined person. a couple hours labor, as the previous poster suggested is all it takes. i'd call a couple other dealers and get a quote for replacing the viscous coupler, i'd be surprised if they quote that high. any shop can do this, there's not much technically to worry about on this job so i wouldn't be that restrained to a subaru dealer only for this job. if this is west chester Ohio - i'll come do the job for $1,300 and save you $500. my brother in law lives there and i play racquetball there sometimes. post in the parts wanted forum for a used one buy a new one, with 86,000 miles new isn't a bad option for the long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Sounds like your VC is toast. Even high mileage cars don't often have trouble with the VC, so I would suspect a manufacturing defect based on info you've given. I'd say it's worth a try to get in touch with SOA and see if they'll foot part or all of the bill for replacement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Are you the original owner? Ever run low on air or drive on a flat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Can you find another dealer, he is high by about 600 dollars ish. The VC is sealed so no additive would help. and remember TRANSMISSION SHOPS ARE EVIL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorrow Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Hi all: thanks for the very useful info. Car has always been well maintained and I bought the car new. I think the best thing is to call around and see if I can get another quote. The dealer has always been very good to me, frequently not charging me for things they do, so I wonder if the mechanic had a bad day that day. I will call them back. PS: live in West Chester, PA, so can't take you up on the offer "grossgary." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 actually west chester is probably closer to me, i live in Morgantown, WV and am from the Baltimore area. good luck getting some better quotes. i'd tell you to run from a place that quotes that much but if they've always been good to you, then maybe you can go talk to them about it. the service managers are trained to sell - maybe there's a better one to talk to or they quoted some additional work, some work you don't need, etc. others have posted how much dealers have charged for this job on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) found one for you to reference: If you're able to, have you shopped around? I had mine replaced by a dealer in Atlanta and the whole thing only cost me right around $900, including parts. Part was $450 or so, and 5 hours of labor at $90/hour. you can ask the dealer to match the online Subaru pricing. it's about a %20 difference between dealer pricing and online dealer pricing. which in your case could be close to $100. i ask the local dealer to match the on,ine prices and they give me a discount - it's about %1-%2 less than the online but i save shipping too and can have the part quicker. dealers have pricing for local shops or locals like me that ask, they do it every day, you just have to ask. doesn't hurt to print the price out and ask if they can match that price for you (which they can, it's just a matter of if they will) as you've been conversing with some Subaru "specialists". i did this with my old dealer in maryland as well. when i went in last week there was a new guy. i told him the old joker used to give me the discount to match online pricing and he was like "yep, i can do that". hmmmm...this doesn't help my $1500 offer does it? Edited March 28, 2011 by grossgary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorrow Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Another question or two if I may. Does my '03 GT, 5 spd manual have a transfer clutch? And if it does, what does it do, and is it possible that is the problem? Tx again all! D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkaste Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Notice you said you are in West Chester, PA I am in Phoenixville. If you want a good second opinion try M&H Transmission on Rte 23 in Phoenixville. When I had problems with my Volvo I took it to him and he said he the only thing to do was change out the tranny fluid with a drain and fill several times and hope for the best. I asked about a tranny flush and boy he did not like those things, said they are a complete rip off. He said the Volvo Auto Trans were known to fail at around 100,000 and there is nothing you can do to fix them short of repacling with a brand new tranny and its just not worth it unless I wanted to give him around $6,000. I thought he was BSing me so I did and internet search and he was right. Changed the fluid out as he said got around 136,000 out if when she finally died of tranny failure. Volvo for Life my A** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Well there are two definitions of tranny flush. One is just flushing out all the fluid via a machine. The other is a chemical, which should never be used with ANY liquid in the car, unless it has a toilet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Just an FYI this is the bad part http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f89/center-diffs-how-replace-them-46979/ "replacing Viscous Coupling Differential" (that was done just for searchability) What sucks is that sunaru seems to have changed their on line ordering system from dealers, so little info there now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idosubaru Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Another question or two if I may. Does my '03 GT, 5 spd manual have a transfer clutch? And if it does, what does it do, and is it possible that is the problem? Tx again all! Dtransfer clutches are in automatics, not manuals. i'm not sure why you're asking but you must be reading/looking elsewhere, maybe you could point to that so we can be on the same page? the rear differential could fail though, i believe the 03 GT has a VLSD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 transfer clutches are in automatics, not manuals. i'm not sure why you're asking but you must be reading/looking elsewhere, maybe you could point to that so we can be on the same page? the rear differential could fail though, i believe the 03 GT has a VLSD. The way to make a VC fail is mismatched rotational speed(which causes them to overheat) , it is a slow quiet death. They do not ever just fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorrow Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Hi grossgary: I asked about the transfer clutch because the dealer said my transfer clutch was going bad. I looked it up and just like you said, that's only on A/T, hence my question and confusion. I mentioned in an earlier post that my tires have always been matched up. I forgot to mention that the tires had been put on after a tire rotation with the tread the wrong direction, ie with the rotation arrow pointing in the wrong direction. I noticed this, but didn't think it was important. It was recently remedied. Is there any possibility that the tires with the tread in the wrong direction could over time (1 year) cause this? I did just check the tires and they are all spot on accurate with respect to diameter. Tx! D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 [quote name=dmorrow;1005823 I mentioned in an earlier post that my tires have always been matched up. I forgot to mention that the tires had been put on after a tire rotation with the tread the wrong direction' date=' ie with the rotation arrow pointing in the wrong direction. I noticed this, but didn't think it was important. It was recently remedied. Is there any possibility that the tires with the tread in the wrong direction could over time (1 year) cause this? I did just check the tires and they are all spot on accurate with respect to diameter. Tx! D[/quote] Were all 4 backwards? Yes it is inportant as tires pump water out from the tire to prevent hydroplaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorrow Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Yes, all four backwards. But I don't think this could have caused the "long slow death" of my VC could it?? Certainly understand that it was not safe to drive as you point out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nipper Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Yes, all four backwards. But I don't think this could have caused the "long slow death" of my VC could it?? Certainly understand that it was not safe to drive as you point out. NO thats not it. all i can come up with is an under pressure tire and thats a longshot may just be one of those things unless you drive around an oval at speed for 200 miles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 A couple of thoughts, dmorrow: 1) You seem to trust your dealership. Now armed with more knowledge, go back and ask them specific questions--"Where did you put that 'special lubricant' and what did you expect it to accomplish?" "Why do you recommend a new transfer clutch when my car doesn't have one?" "What would a new viscous coupler + installation cost?" 2) Personally, I would try to find a small independent shop (one that specializes in Subarus if possible!) and see what input they can give you--and get an estimate from them. 3) Add your state to your ID info. It could help you get more localized help and recommendations. As a matter of fact I believe some USMB members run small shops in Eastern Pennsylvania! 4) FYI, the critical tire measurement is circumference not diameter, maximum 1/4" deviation. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorrow Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 A couple of thoughts, dmorrow: 1) You seem to trust your dealership. Now armed with more knowledge, go back and ask them specific questions--"Where did you put that 'special lubricant' and what did you expect it to accomplish?" "Why do you recommend a new transfer clutch when my car doesn't have one?" "What would a new viscous coupler + installation cost?" 2) Personally, I would try to find a small independent shop (one that specializes in Subarus if possible!) and see what input they can give you--and get an estimate from them. 3) Add your state to your ID info. It could help you get more localized help and recommendations. As a matter of fact I believe some USMB members run small shops in Eastern Pennsylvania! 4) FYI, the critical tire measurement is circumference not diameter, maximum 1/4" deviation. Good luck. Good points! I have another appointment with the dealer next week. Will be interesting to see their response particularly on the transfer clutch. I'll ask more questions next time. Tx for the advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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