Treblemaker Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Why, oh, why in this day and age of instant access to internet expertise would someone still use a screwdriver to gouge out oil seals... We picked up a nice looking, nice running '93 Loyale last december after the front end of our previous Loyale tried to violate the Pauli Exclusion Principle with the back of an Accord. I thought we were in good shape because it had only about 20,000 on the timing belts, and who would go to all that trouble without replacing the seals, right? Unfortunately after about three months it began leaking oil like a deep-sea blowout, losing about a quart a week (and most of it succumbing to the mysterious allure of the exhaust pipe...) So I was kind of surprised to get the front end apart and find shiny new seals on the crank and left camshaft. Couldn't see the right shaft, though -- someone had hit it with a hammer (???) and mushroomed the end of it so the gear wouldn't come off. Guess which seal hadn't been replaced. After huffing and pulling for too long Dremel came to the rescue, the shaft was once again well-rounded and the gear lived free. Pulled off the seal housings and.... o-rings hard as a rock (original)? And again with the gouges on the camshaft ?! So, either they had no clue what they were doing or were too lazy to remove four bolts? Cheep! Wish I could sleeve the camshafts but don't see how I could get the housings off to replace the O-rings ever again. Oh, but _somebody_ had the housings off before because the bolts were stripped almost loose (or maybe it's because Haynes says 80 in-lb and Chilton says 50? Mitchell will tell me the truth at the Library on Monday). Whoever invented heli-coil should be sainted! So, anyhow, I checked the crank for any high spots threw on a little ultra-grey and happily drove the speedi-sleeve home, and.... the sleeve wouldn't go home. With the "installation" flange on the sleeve it hit the "shelf" on the crank just inside the engine and won't go on far enough to allow the timing gear to seat. Plan B (yeah, this got expensive fast), Try driving it halfway on then tear off the flange and use the gear to drive it the rest of the way on (yeah, I'll bet you could have told me how well that would not work...) Still no joy. About to give up, and removing the failed sleeves probably did even more damage to the seal surface, so no way to back out now. Last try: found a bit of pipe that _exactly_ fit the inside of the sleeve (now do you understand, dear, why I throw nothing away?), lay it in the groove on the vise and dremel comes to the rescue again! Used a small cutting wheel to slowly-so-it-doesn't-heat-up cut about 4mm off the end of the sleeve. Cut from the inside out to avoid the inevitable slip of the wheel, which of course meant the jig held perfectly steady. A little bevel and wire wheel at the end and here is a SOAS (sleeve of appropriate size) ready to install in the usual way, and sits now about 1/2 mm behind seat for the timing gear. All that to say, if you run into the same problem, here is one way to solve it. Speedi-sleeve doesn't make "shorter" sleeves and Subaru doesn't make "longer" crankshafts. The front (cut) edge of the sleeve may still be a little rough so, not wanting all _that_ work to go to waste, I'll wrap it a couple times around with well-oiled plastic wrap while the new seal goes on (learned this the hard way last time I had to sleeve a crankshaft on a Mazda). Now I sit back and wait to hear "Really? All you had to do was _this_ easy and inexpensive solution". Oh, and if I ever catch you using a screwdriver to pull a seal, I'll find a rather un-imaginative place to hide it. The screwdriver, I mean. Cheers, T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbone Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Excellent first post, great write up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 TIMKEN Part # KWK99147 Min Shaft Dia: 1.49"; Max Shaft Dia: 1.496"; Installation Depth: 0.984"; Width on Shaft: 0.512"; Overall Sleeve Width: 0.669"; Flange Dia: 1.78"; Sleeve Material: Steel Front I would think with this sleeve, you wouldn't have had to modify it? Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treblemaker Posted May 16, 2011 Author Share Posted May 16, 2011 Hi, Doug, Thank you for the suggestion. I think this Timken part has the same dimensions as the Speedi-Sleeve (99147). The problem is the "shelf" on which the seal rides is only 15 mm deep and there is another shelf behind it limiting how far the sleeve can be driven onto the shaft. So the overall width including the installation flange has to be less than 15 mm (.669" ~= 17 mm) or else it will "stick out" and interfere with the timing gear. This crudely-drawn not-to-scale image may explain more clearly. Best Regards, -- T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 (edited) I almost always use a screwdriver to pull seals. I have yet to damage a shaft doing so. It's all about technique. If you don't know what you are doing then find someone that does. There are seals and seal locations where a seal puller will not work - and yeah I've used self-tapper's and such and even a few fancy german seal pulling specialty tools in the Audi world. Screwdriver is still my mainstay seal pulling tool. Done properly it will not leave a mark on a shaft. All too often people are pulling seals with the "wrong technique" and blame the tool when in the hands of a pro the tool is not at fault. And in most cases unless the shaft is really torn to peices - you can just dress the sharp edges of the gouges from a poorly placed screwdriver removal and it will be fine. A bit of work with a points file and/or a peice of sharpening stone will work wonders. When a quality seal is subsequently installed straight and true it will be unlikely to leak to any significant degree. Most seal failures I see are from crooked seal installation. GD Edited May 17, 2011 by GeneralDisorder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treblemaker Posted May 17, 2011 Author Share Posted May 17, 2011 Who am I to argue with an Elite Master! But yes, point taken. "It is a poor workman who blames his tools". Your screwdriver is safe from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Heh - that's not to say that I haven't used a speedi-sleeve a time or two - mostly on SBC crank's and in my former life as an industrial machinery tech. There's one on the crank in my truck right now in fact. Those 1960's seals tend to create big, nasty grooves crankshafts when they go hard. GD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 "Now I sit back and wait to hear "Really? All you had to do was _this_ easy and inexpensive solution"." You take that sleeve and turn it around so the flange is outwards. I put liquid steel in the groove. Slide the two gears back on and then press the sleeve on to full depth using the balancer bolt. Back the bolt out and take the gears off. Twist the flange off, you will want to dress it up a little to take off the edge. Clean up, you're done. And it's all because of you! TYVM Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treblemaker Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 That worked for you ?! I didn't mention in in my original post but I had read on ... I think it was an MG forum ... where they recommended to install a certain sleeve backward. It tried it here but I couldn't get the sleeve started on the shaft, so I was worried pressing with the gear would just bend and collapse it (another $40 tossed in the bin). Also tried warming it in boiling water to expand it a little bit (I know they say "DON'T USE HEAT", but I figured boiling water is no hotter than it will get when the engine is running) How did you get the "sharp" end of the sleeve started onto the shaft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 (edited) Yes. After snugging the ratchet down, taking out all slack, it was just a slight bump with the ratchet. Very low pressure and risk. You feel it sliding. Here's before I applied the Liquid Steel. This crank is worth sleeving, or I wouldn't have done it. I did it on the bench like this so people will know it's possible. Subaru's don't have to leak, seep, or weep oil, this takes care of that. I had a Camshaft sleeve on hand, it's the same as the Crank. Fully seated. BTW. Timken KWK-Sleeve, National Redi-Sleeve, and Speedy-Sleeve are all made in the U.S., are to my eyes identical, and I can't imagine there are three plants in this country making these things. The one difference I found is price. KWK generally lowest, then Redi, then Speedy. Notice below, all three are Part# 99147. TIMKEN Part # KWK99147 Min Shaft Dia: 1.49"; Max Shaft Dia: 1.496"; Installation Depth: 0.984"; Width on Shaft: 0.512"; Overall Sleeve Width: 0.669"; Flange Dia: 1.78"; Sleeve Material: Steel Front $18.46Add to Cart NATIONAL Part # 99147 Redi-Sleeve; Shaft Size Min=1.49", Shaft Size Max=1.496", Width=0.512", Overall Width=0.669", Flange Outer Diameter=1.78", Installation Depth=0.984" $20.99Add to Cart SKF Part # 99147 Shaft to=1.4960"; Y width=.6690"; X width=.5120"; Shaft from=1.4900"; Shaft=1.496"; Install depth=.9840"; Flange outside diameter=1.7810IN Viton (Only 4 Remaining)$25.79Add to Cart Edited May 20, 2011 by Quidam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 (edited) BTW. I find nothing wrong with the way you did this. I believe you said you used Permatex Grey? One step we skipped is the issue of where that goes, and whether or not excess can be wiped off. With the front crank sleeve, any excess material can be wiped out, regardless of which way the sleeve is installed. As you can see below, for a rear crank sleeve, whatever is put on in excess can't be wiped off with the motor in the car. Installed the normal way. That puts whatever was used under the sleeve, exposed to the crancase oil. If this sleeve was installed backwards, getting to any excess material is do-able. with the motor in the car, even. I'm going to tear the flange off of this one. Here's what it looked like before sleeve installation. Edited May 18, 2011 by Quidam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treblemaker Posted May 18, 2011 Author Share Posted May 18, 2011 Hi, Doug, Thanks for the photos! I'll probably sleeve the rear main when I do the clutch (not for a while yet, I hope). I imagine putting a thin film of sealant on the inside of the sleeve instead of on the shaft would cause the excess to push out the front where it could be cleaned up. Do you think it would seal as effectively that way, since any gaps between the seal and the shaft must be very, very small? Thanks, -- T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Hi, Doug, Thanks for the photos! I'll probably sleeve the rear main when I do the clutch (not for a while yet, I hope). I imagine putting a thin film of sealant on the inside of the sleeve instead of on the shaft would cause the excess to push out the front where it could be cleaned up. Do you think it would seal as effectively that way, since any gaps between the seal and the shaft must be very, very small? Thanks, -- T. Oh, YW. Yes, it pushes out the front, done that way. But, there's not enough material to fill the groove when it gets to there. But, Mfg. instructions state you don't have to use any goo if the groove isn't very bad. In any case, you could install them with oil as a lubricant, and probably nothing bad will ever happen. Tho I've never done that. It's just, filling the groove gives it "the whole nine yards" support behind the sleeve. As good as it can be, for the long haul. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 A bit of work with a points file and/or a peice of sharpening stone will work wonders. When a quality seal is subsequently installed straight and true it will be unlikely to leak to any significant degree. Most seal failures I see are from crooked seal installation. GD Hey GD, I removed some cam seals with a screwdriver today, but that crazy man didn't catch me doing it. It's an unknown if an individual has the skill to drive a seal straight with a hammer, without distortion. However, it's easy to make sure the seal ends up flush with the block, in this case. Same with the rear crank seal. If one can't install these seals flush with the block, they probably shouldn't be doing it. If you get a seal crossed up over a groove, it may be early failure time. If someone wants, you have that crank bolt to improvise a press on solution. Same with the rear crank seal. Uncomfortable with a hammer? Then press them in. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Treblemaker Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 I removed some cam seals with a screwdriver today, but that crazy man didn't catch me doing it. What! Where? Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 (edited) Hi, I removed the flange on the front crank seal with Bull Nose tin snips and twisted it off with needle nose pliers. I went around that edge with a points file, twice. I dress the edge with wet/dry paper and solvent to finish it. Sleeve is stainless steel so it's harder than the crank. I took this picture to get the most bang for the buck, while I was doing it. Doug Edit: KWK-Sleeve Beck/Arnley parts. NOK front crank seal, Parut? oil pump, NOG main bearings, ACL rod bearings. This thing will be a Beck/Arnley motor...well, quite a bit. Btw, because I still hate doing it:) PLASTIGAGEing a Subaru is still relatively, a pain in the rump roast. So to speak. Edited May 21, 2011 by Quidam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 Hey, In short, what i'd do to install the front crank sleeve, in either direction: Fill any groove with liquid, powdered metal, epoxy. I'd use a popcicle stick and apply just a little more than needed, squeege like over the groove area only. I'd probably use non hardening Loctite 209, wiping the inside of the sleeve with that. Like you were talking about I'd install the sleeve before the epoxy fully hardens. I can think of several combinations of goo that would do the job tho.:-\ Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) So, I took this today. If you look real hard, you can see the crank seal tension spring, between crank seal and the crank. The sleeve has a wall thickness of .010". I've filed that edge on the sleeve three times, and the crank seal spring popped out three times. I know what the problem is, and how to fix it. But, for this motor I've been debating whether or not to remove all the oil seal springs anyway.I need to take another picture, to show you something as to the spring popping out of the crank seal thing. That channel in the block drains the oil that comes out that side of the main bearing, and is how the front crank seal is lubricated. With the two block halves together, I pressed it to just proud of the block surface. This Genuine Subaru crank seal, when pressed any further then this, starts covering the oil drain channel. Edit:I installed this sleeve too deep to be flush with the end of the crank. It sits back some and creates a two step ledge. It's no longer a tapered smooth surface ramp type of deal. One problem is you need nearly every mm of that surface for the seal. I filed it again and put the seal on without popping the seal spring. With all the on and off I put a nick in the primary seal edge. Then I tore up the secondary lip on that two step. I'll finish it and install a another Genuine Subaru seal. My harmonic balancer tool has everything needed to press these seals in. Edited May 25, 2011 by Quidam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) I finished taking the flange off after I did this: This picture is deceptive. Depth measurements are 13/16", end of crank to crank sleeve flange. 1/2" Block to flange. That centers the sleeve on the seal, as you can see from the seal witness marks. The flange is actually in the center of that oil drain channel. Edited May 25, 2011 by Quidam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 Between Speedy, Redy, and KWK, there is no front crank sleeve that would be an easy install in the car. I'm pretty sure I could pull it off tho by pressing the sleeve in part way, removing the flange, then pressing it the rest of the way on. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quidam Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 (edited) Transfers heat to crank, not to seal. Eliminates welding & regrinding. RMS Finish 12-17, ideal for seal. Lasts over 150,000 miles. These cost $5.09, plus shipping. The install tool costs $18.00. BUT. This is for rear crank seal only. Next time I need one, I'll buy the tool. After buying the tool, any EA-82 I want to sleeve, costs me the price of the part. BTW, with that setup, I can sleeve the rear of any EJ for $7.09. After buying the tool. Edited June 2, 2011 by Quidam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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