99 Impreza OBS Won't Take Gas Fill

[KitteesPJs]

I hope someone here can help me.

 

I have a 99 Subarau Impreza Outback Sport. I bought it used with a bad fuel fill pipe (completely rusted out). Before replacing the pipe I couldn't pump gas but a few pennies at a time without the pump shutting off. [Clunk. Clunk. Clunk.] I tried every imaginable position of the filler hose and even tried different gas stations, but could not put in more than drips and drabs until I finally gave up and left.

 

After getting my fuel fill pipe replaced I am STILL having the same problem. I have no (and never have had any) check engine lights on, no messages, no codes, no poor (or weird) performance. She starts right up and goes great. She runs just like a 'normal' car and you wouldn't know there was a thing wrong until you go to put gas in. I just can't fill her up without the pump continually shutting off, literally every few cents (I usually give up at around $10 which is only a couple of gallons). I don't notice any gas backing up the fill pipe, and none splashes out; it just doesn't want to go in. The mechanic who replaced the fill pipe said it's probably the sensor in the tank and that I just have to live with it, but I've been reading about blocked or stuck vent control valves (canister vent valve stuck? fuel vent blocked by dirt dobber? charcoal canister full?). This is basically gibberish to me but it makes sense that some of that rust might have blocked something down yonder.

 

I'm just a dumb girl; I don't know ANYTHING about the mechanics of cars. Can someone here explain it to me as simply as possible (as if I were a two-year old) what might be wrong and what I can do to fix it? Do I just have to live with it? If so, is it a safety issue?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Dee

Edited May 19, 2011 by KitteesPJs

[bru73]

it is the breather tube that goes into the body it is located on the right side on top of chatckle canaster this may sound dumb but i have cleaned spiter webs out of a lot of cars and problem is gome:banana:

[Fairtax4me]

Sounds about right.

Another possibility is the tank vent valve is jammed stuck.

All of this is designed to release pressure from the tank during refueling or during high outside temperatures (which causes the gas to evaporate and create high pressure in the tank).

 

I don't think the vent valve can be accessed with the tank still in the car.

 

I'd try what Bru suggests first. It's easier, and free.

[Arty]

I hope someone here can help me.

 

I have a 99 Subarau Impreza Outback Sport. I bought it used with a bad fuel fill pipe (completely rusted out). Before replacing the pipe I couldn't pump gas but a few pennies at a time without the pump shutting off. [Clunk. Clunk. Clunk.] I tried every imaginable position of the filler hose and even tried different gas stations, but could not put in more than drips and drabs until I finally gave up and left.

 

After getting my fuel fill pipe replaced I am STILL having the same problem. I have no (and never have had any) check engine lights on, no messages, no codes, no poor (or weird) performance. She starts right up and goes great. She runs just like a 'normal' car and you wouldn't know there was a thing wrong until you go to put gas in. I just can't fill her up without the pump continually shutting off, literally every few cents (I usually give up at around $10 which is only a couple of gallons). I don't notice any gas backing up the fill pipe, and none splashes out; it just doesn't want to go in. The mechanic who replaced the fill pipe said it's probably the sensor in the tank and that I just have to live with it, but I've been reading about blocked or stuck vent control valves (canister vent valve stuck? fuel vent blocked by dirt dobber? charcoal canister full?). This is basically gibberish to me but it makes sense that some of that rust might have blocked something down yonder.

 

I'm just a dumb girl; I don't know ANYTHING about the mechanics of cars. Can someone here explain it to me as simply as possible (as if I were a two-year old) what might be wrong and what I can do to fix it? Do I just have to live with it? If so, is it a safety issue?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Dee

 

Hi there!

 

First, welcome to USMB- the ultimate source of answers to any Subaru related question you may have.

 

Second, I am just now finding out about this issue myself, so I'm not sure exactly how much help I can personally be, but it seems like our cars have issues with the filler tube forming holes. Was the filler tube you recently had put on used?

 

And if it's of any help to you, I also have a thread going right now that is somewhat related to this same topic. The link is-

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?p=1017754#post1017754

 

 

Let us know!

[KitteesPJs]

it is the breather tube that goes into the body it is located on the right side on top of chatckle canaster...

 

Thank you all so much for your advice. I have to ask: is this something I can remedy myself and how would I go about doing it? Do you mean charcoal canister? What does the canister look like? Where is it located? Is it up high at the fill or down low near the tank? Do I need to remove anything (tire, etc) to get at it? Is the breather tube itself plastic or rubber or metal? Do I have to disassemble anything or pull it from the fill pipe or canister? If I just yank it from the car will gas spill everywhere? Can I then just force it back in place or do I need special tools? Can I just ask my mechanic to clean the breather tube on top of the [chatckle? charcoal?] canister and have him understand what the heck I'm talking about? (Are there any single guys in Central Maine looking for work and/or a date? )

 

If the breather tube turns out to not be the problem, and it ends up being the vent valve being stuck (and thus the tank needing removing at, I assume, great expense) is it dangerous to just leave it as is? I can live with the annoyance but I don't want to risk a great Hollywood explosion scene. Also, what is the chance there's a leak further down (or does the new fill pipe go all the way down straight into the tank)? [i wish I paid more attention to these things when I was younger/married.]

 

As far as I know it is a new fill pipe and my mechanic said that he sees them rotted out like this all the time, not as part of a Scooby problem, but a MAINE problem. (I actually had a neighbor try to sell me his 99 Olds Intrigue and it, too, had a completely rotted fill tube—it wasn't even attached to the car anymore!).

 

Thank you for the link Arty—on my way there now.

 

 

Dee

Edited May 20, 2011 by KitteesPJs

[WoodsWagon]

One of the vent tubes that connects to the top of the fuel filler neck is clogged. It's a 1/2" diameter pipe that goes through a separate hole in the frame next to the filler neck. Follow it down and see what it connects to. You can unhook hoses and use large pipe cleaners to chase through them for debris.

 

When your putting gas in the tank, the air in the space the gas is trying to fill has to get back to the top of the fuel neck.

 

Even if it is the tank vent valve, I'd cut through the floor before I dropped the tank. A 99 impreza from Maine is going to be nothing but a pile of broken bolts and tears when you get done dropping the rear subframe out of there. There's a pair of access panels under the rear floor to get to the pump and sender. You can cut the floor starting from these holes and peel it back, fix the problem, and weld the floor back down. But, that's a last resort. Try the hose hooked to the filler neck first.

 

Edit: Here's a pic Turbone took of a car he had to do this to:

 

For filling it in the mean time, rather than turning the pump on full and having it click off, just barely squeeze the handle so it creeps fuel in.

Edited May 20, 2011 by WoodsWagon

[Fairtax4me]

The fill tube is metal and rubber, and probably some plastic too. The section that generally gets replaced is the metal section because it rusts out.

 

What you'll probably run into is rusted bolts and broken brackets even tryin to get the evap canister out of the way to get access to all the tubes back there.

 

But anyway. If you remove the canister (it's the large black box) there is a round thing over top of that that is an air filter. There are two hoses that attach to it, one of them leads to an electric valve that opens to control airflow going into the fuel tank. The other hose (should be short) leads to a bracket and either ends or pokes up into the frame, which is where the spiders that Bru mentioned would probably sneak into to make their cocoon pod things to sleep out the season in.

This is a known issue on other makes of vehicles, Saab has a TSB about this problem. Another auto maker (can't remember which it was exactly) just issued a recall about this.

 

One trick you can try during fill up. Don't push the pump nozzle all the way into the fill tube, just push it in a couple inches just enough that it will hang in the filler and not slip out.

[KitteesPJs]

Thanks again for all your help. As soon as it stops raining up here I'll get on under her and see what I can figure out (don't be surprised to see this post updated if/when I get confused, lol).

 

As to your tips for filling her up, I've tried them all—I've tried every position other than standing on my head with a broom sticking out of my butt and nothing works. Literally have to fill it one drip at a time.

 

91Loyale, your bring up a topic that I've wondered about but figured was WAY too over my head. But what the heck—it's out there. Can you explain the difference between a frame and a subframe? Is there a 'fatal flaw' with the OBS subframe that makes it impossible to replace rusted panels or somehow rot (itself) from the inside out without appearing to be rusty on the surface?

 

This lil soobie has a small rust spot on each rear wheel well (will post pics if you'd like). They both were bondo-patched but not painted. When my guy replaced the fill tube apparently he did some rubbing up against the right side rust spot which is directly under the gas fill. Well, the bondo area came loose and needs re-doing (something that I thought I might be able to do myself).

 

Before I bought the car I crawled under there and scanned everywhere for rust and, other than typical light surface rust, I found only those two bondoed spots and the fill pipe. I then took it to mechanic A (who did the gas fill) for a post-purchase inspection. He and I stood under the car on a lift and saw no significant rust. I then took it to mechanic B to have the winter tires swapped up for the summer jobbies. Again, we both stood under the car and saw no serious rust. Knowing I'd have to have that little patch fixed before getting a sticker (this coming October) I took it to one of our more experienced body guys to get a price before attempting to do it myself. Well, he came out of his office, and before even reaching the car, proclaimed that the subframe was rotted through and that he couldn't morally fix the wheel wells (said something about needing to use sheet metal but there was nothing to attach it to and the car was unsafe—I wasn't listening at that point, as I was trying to keep from fainting). He told me that he had purchased TWO 99 Sub Impreza OBSs for his daughter and both had no rust other than in those wheel wells which turns out had rotted the frame and completely compromised the safety of the vehicle. I asked him to look to be sure and he just shoved his hand up there (didn't look, just felt around) and stated in no uncertain terms that I should “put it up on the lawn as soon as you get home” (meaning sell it). He tried to explain to me that it was a fatal flaw in the unibody design (or something like that) having to do with the subframe and it wasn't designed to have panels replaced. He said that the rust was so bad that a) fumes were coming into the cabin (through the hatch area), and if the car took a hit, the back half would 'disintegrate' on impact. I was speechless. However, when I came home and looked both in the wells themselves and in the hatch area (even where the jack is hidden) there is NO rust and certainly no area through which I could shove a finger, let alone a hand, into the cabin.

 

Did I misunderstand what he was saying? Is there perhaps rust hidden between the frame and the subframe? All he did was feel around under each wheel well for a couple of seconds and acted as if his hand had poked up into the cabin—which it couldn't have. I wonder if he was just blowing it off due to his past experiences with the exact same year/make/model.

 

Again I apologize for being a 'dumb' girl, but I'm newly single and need to learn this stuff.

 

[Fairtax4me]

These cars have their fair share of rust issues. On the Legacy wagons there is a small space inside the rear fender well that will rust out, the Impreza may be similar. But it's just a shield area. It's not a structural part of the car.

The thing about a Unibody car, (unibody means the frame structure is designed into the body/passenger compartment structure of the vehicle, rather than building a body to sit on top of a frame like a pick up truck) If one area rusts a little, there is usually plenty of other structural support to hold up in a crash. The whole car would have to be badly rusted to compromise the "cage structure" of the frame, which is the part that protects occupants during a crash.

 

The rear cross member/ sub-frame is a bolt on section of the rear suspension. It's basically what holds the rear suspension to the frame of the car. Those can and do rust out, the bolts that hold it to the car will rust, the bolts that hold the rear suspension parts to it will rust. The salty roads are what does it, and once it starts it doesn't stop. Generally repairs where multiple rusted bolts need to be removed do not go smoothly, bolts seize and then break when trying to remove them. The cross member has to come out in order for the fuel tank to be removed, which is why you want to hope you don't have to remove the fuel tank.

Is yours rusted that badly? Probably not yet, it's pretty evident when rust is bad on the cross member.

 

When you get under the car, take some pics of the under carriage and post them up. I bet plenty of people here have just as much or way more rust. I can think of one thread right off the top of my head where I'm 98.6% positive the poster has a much bigger, much more worrisome rust problem than you do.

[Arty]

 

Again I apologize for being a 'dumb' girl, but I'm newly single and need to learn this stuff.

 

 

While I may not be the person giving the technical advice, I would like to say that there is no need to single yourself out as a "stupid girl", or for that matter, even a "girl"... Subaru owners come in all shapes, sizes, colors, makes, etc... You've asked good questions so far, so don't worry about coming across as stupid, either.

[WoodsWagon]

 

This lil soobie has a small rust spot on each rear wheel well (will post pics if you'd like). They both were bondo-patched but not painted.

 

Knowing I'd have to have that little patch fixed before getting a sticker (this coming October) I took it to one of our more experienced body guys to get a price before attempting to do it myself. Well, he came out of his office, and before even reaching the car, proclaimed that the subframe was rotted through and that he couldn't morally fix the wheel wells (said something about needing to use sheet metal but there was nothing to attach it to and the car was unsafe—I wasn't listening at that point, as I was trying to keep from fainting). He told me that he had purchased TWO 99 Sub Impreza OBSs for his daughter and both had no rust other than in those wheel wells which turns out had rotted the frame and completely compromised the safety of the vehicle. I asked him to look to be sure and he just shoved his hand up there (didn't look, just felt around) and stated in no uncertain terms that I should “put it up on the lawn as soon as you get home” (meaning sell it). He tried to explain to me that it was a fatal flaw in the unibody design (or something like that) having to do with the subframe and it wasn't designed to have panels replaced. He said that the rust was so bad that a) fumes were coming into the cabin (through the hatch area), and if the car took a hit, the back half would 'disintegrate' on impact. I was speechless. However, when I came home and looked both in the wells themselves and in the hatch area (even where the jack is hidden) there is NO rust and certainly no area through which I could shove a finger, let alone a hand, into the cabin.

 

All he did was feel around under each wheel well for a couple of seconds and acted as if his hand had poked up into the cabin—which it couldn't have. I wonder if he was just blowing it off due to his past experiences with the exact same year/make/model.

 

No, unfortunately the body guy knows his subarus. He may not have explained it properly, but it's a really common problem. The outer wall of the strut towers in the rear rusts through, it wasn't painted or undercoated or seamsealed properly or whatever, but it crumbles from rust. That opens up a 5x6" hole into the area between the quarter panel and the strut tower, letting water and salt spray from the wheels into the inner quarter panel area. That then rusts out the rear corners of the wheel well. If you reach your hand into the wheel well with your palm facing upwards, touch the coil spring with your fingers, go up as far as possible, then curl your hand, you should feel a solid vertical surface. This forms one wall of the box that the strut goes up into. Most likely there's nothing there.

 

Now, the strut is still supported on 3 sides, and the 4th side is still connected to the area under the rear side window, so the load is still spread pretty well. Yes, it's a problem, but I'm not sure how structurally compromised it actually is. All the legacys up to 99 in maine, nh, and mass are probably in the same condidtion, and imprezas up to 01 too and probably beyond. Yet you don't hear of too many collapsing, and there's a lot of them driving around here.

 

My solution is to use bituthane roofing underlayment. You take the wheel off, clean off the area around the hole, and stick sheets of that in there to cover it up. Use a heat gun or hair dryer to get the bituthane warm and flexable, and work it into the surface. Then, spray it all with rubberized undercoating. That should keep more water and salt from getting in there, and the rust hole doesn't seem to spread beyond that panel. There is no good way to fix it, the only way to access it is through the wheel well, and welding up in a box over your head where you can't even fit a face mask is hell, so no ones going to patch it properly.

 

The subframe is a different issue, that's what the suspension and rear diff attach to. They rust out sometimes, but most don't. It's getting them out of the car to remove the gas tank that causes problems. The bolts that hold it in go into captured nuts welded into the body. If the bolts break or strip, it's hell to fix. And after 12 years of salt spray, they're likely to break or strip. It can turn into a nightmare job very quickly with your mechanic switching between sobbing the corner and throwing tools in fits of rage.

 

I'm a mechanic, and I'm moving west because I've had enough of dealing with rusty cars from the salt the state uses here. When you have to routinely use an oxy-acetylene torch to take apart 5 year old cars in a dealership, it's bad. And they base all the book times off of cars they take apart in California, so you get screwed on every job that's rusted together.

[KaraK]

While I may not be the person giving the technical advice, I would like to say that there is no need to single yourself out as a "stupid girl", or for that matter, even a "girl"... Subaru owners come in all shapes, sizes, colors, makes, etc... You've asked good questions so far, so don't worry about coming across as stupid, either.

 

I would like to double this comment!!!

[Fairtax4me]

While I may not be the person giving the technical advice, I would like to say that there is no need to single yourself out as a "stupid girl", or for that matter, even a "girl"... Subaru owners come in all shapes, sizes, colors, makes, etc... You've asked good questions so far, so don't worry about coming across as stupid, either.

 

X3

 

The "dumb girl" thing goes out the window when you actually ask for advice.

[KitteesPJs]

Well, I went out and looked things over before I read 91Loyale's post (which was incredibly insightful). In light of what I saw, I have to say: never underestimate the power of a FLASH camera.

 

I got up under the soobie and took some pics and video and I can't believe the difference between what I see with just my eyes and a headlamp vs. a flash/zoom camera. I felt like Bob Ballard recording the rusty demise of the Titanic. I owe that Body Guy an apology for doubting him. I don't know that she's ready to be put out to pasture but I did see some disturbing stuff. 91Loyale was spot on, which is discouraging but not surprising since I grew up in Massachusetts and have a LONG history of dealing with rusty vehicles. Just another thing I forgot to take into account when moving back here from the sunny south. [blurgh.]

 

I don't know if it's because I'm new and don't have enough posts under my belt yet, but I wasn't allowed to upload pics here. Instead I put two videos (one of the left side and one of the right side) up at my youtube channel and put the pics up at Flickr:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YArXbJAkSpk

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cAVTEQPnTk

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kitteespjs/sets/72157626799562348/

 

 

Whilst I've been dickering with rust, the lil thing seems to be developing another issue: I drove her for about a week before getting the fuel fill pipe replaced and the oil changed. Her motor at the time was so quiet that I often thought she'd stalled out on me when I came to a stop. After the oil change her motor started making a slight 'ticking' sound when at idle (as if she was low on oil). I assumed she had a taste for synthetic oil and made a mental note to go that route for her next oil change. The mechanic who changed the oil said it was probably the lifters and that was 'normal' for a car this age and not to be concerned (even though it started suddenly after the oil change). To make things even more interesting, I also noticed ANOTHER ticking sound that seemed to be coming through the driver's side window vent. It was very slight and I figured (since she was parked under a tree at the shop and came home with tons of leaves and pine needles and what not on her) that something got into a vent and would work its way out. Well, both sounds have gotten louder but the dash sound now seems to be related to the clutch--if I slightly depress the clutch the ticking goes away. The motor is still louder (with its own kind of 'rough' tick) than it was before the oil change (which I'm still attributing to the need for synthetic oil), but the distinct ticking/clacking noise stops when you touch the clutch. The sound isn't quite as obvious when in gear but if I just put a little pressure on the clutch in 1st through 4th gear, the motor gets quieter and that big ticking noise goes away (doesn't seem to make a difference in fifth). She's sometimes been a bit squawky about going into reverse (on some occasions she'll grind, but every stick I've had has done that once in a while) but until now I've not been concerned about a clutch problem. :-\

 

I love this little car, she's fast, fun, and handles like a villain's get-away dream. Between the rust, the gas filling problem (which I couldn't figure out while under there—gotta get her up higher and get that tire out of my way), and now a clutch/motor issue, do you think she's destined for the ‘For Sale’ lawn? She's almost 200K (which I understand is nothing to these motors), and she's been well-maintained (I have all the service records), but is it worth dumping more money into something that the rust up here is determined to claim? I'm not made of $ and I surely don't want my mechanic either sobbing in a corner or throwing tools in fits of rage . I just am not sure I'd be able to do much better finding another vehicle with my limited income in this damned rust-filled New England climate.

 

I am SO moving back west myself 91Loyale, as soon as I get a few pennies saved. Once I have first/last/security and enough loot for a moving van (and gas to fill it) I. AM. Outta. Here. Either back to SoCal or I might try Arizona. Lemme know if you're interested in a roomie (seriously).

[WoodsWagon]

I had a whole informative post written up, and my laptop bluescreened. It's been doing that a lot lately, "memory parity error, the system has halted, call hardware provider for assistance"

 

So, I'm going to be short and to the point:

 

Noise with clutch; it's the throwout bearing rattling on the snout of the transmission because one of the spring clips holding it to the clutch fork has broken. The fix is to install a TSK-1 sleeve and retrofit throwout bearing kit. This should only be done if the clutch is slipping too, because it's the same amount of work to get in there, and the throwout bearing rattling wont cause problems. I let my dad's car go rattling for years before I fixed it with a clutch job at 180k. So ignore it, it's not hurting anything and no sense spending the money to fix it if the car already has rust issues.

 

Noise in the engine; if it changed with the type of oil, it's probably piston slap. Another non-issue, it be let go to the point where it sounds like a diesel, and other than being embarrassing to drive, it will run fine. My mom's 2.5l was brutally abused before we got it (PO's actually poured gas on the motor and set it on fire to total it instead of doing the headgaskets, we got it from auction) The piston slap has been awful for the last 50k, and it still gets mid 20's mpg. Is the noise worse when you first start it, but then quiets down as it warms up? If yes, probably piston slap. Don't worry about it. Some brands/viscosities of oil muffle it better than others, that's why the noise changed. Synthetic is a waste of money, if you're doing 10k oil changes, maybe it's worth it. It doesn't help the engine any, the oil just lasts longer.

 

I'm headed to WY. Not only am I done with rust, I'm done with people. Loads of nice, dry, open, peace and quiet out there.

Edited May 25, 2011 by WoodsWagon

[WoodsWagon]

I can't get the photos's to insert, but this one:

 

See the dark shadow right above where the spring is in the picture, towards the left hand side? That hollow where the strut and spring go up into a pocket in the body is where the rust starts. If you were to reach your fingers into that dark shadow and feel the vertical surface of the body there, that's where the crumbling usually is. The brightly lit area above where the spring is in the picture is the arch of the wheel well. The rusted panel is around the corner and up from that surface, into where the strut and spring go.

[Scottkey]

In regard to bru73's suggestion - what is the "chatckle canaster" ?  - this seems to be a doubletypo? 

AND, since i do have the same issue (as we speak) is this something i can get my eyes and hands on without lifting the car ('04 Outback) and what would be the method of clearing the mess if it's there?  Would I need to disconnect anything?  

My experience with cars is about the equivalent of most people's time playing the oboe.

 

I've had this issue before and spent $700 having a sensor and cannister replaced and then being told there WERE spiderwebs in there to boot.

So, if it's all about the spiderwebs and I can get rid of them myself without screwing something up worse, I'd love to know what to do!

 

[plastickmat]

One of the vent tubes that connects to the top of the fuel filler neck is clogged. It's a 1/2" diameter pipe that goes through a separate hole in the frame next to the filler neck. Follow it down and see what it connects to. You can unhook hoses and use large pipe cleaners to chase through them for debris.

 

When your putting gas in the tank, the air in the space the gas is trying to fill has to get back to the top of the fuel neck.

 

Even if it is the tank vent valve, I'd cut through the floor before I dropped the tank. A 99 impreza from Maine is going to be nothing but a pile of broken bolts and tears when you get done dropping the rear subframe out of there. There's a pair of access panels under the rear floor to get to the pump and sender. You can cut the floor starting from these holes and peel it back, fix the problem, and weld the floor back down. But, that's a last resort. Try the hose hooked to the filler neck first.

 

Edit: Here's a pic Turbone took of a car he had to do this to:

 

For filling it in the mean time, rather than turning the pump on full and having it click off, just barely squeeze the handle so it creeps fuel in.

I know this has been a while but I'm about to cut and do something similar to this on this picture I see that there's an opening where the pump is but you also opened up under the rear seat to have access to what? The top of the tank?

 

I want to access my vent valve which one would it be on this picture...

 

 

Car was working fine until I left it unused for 3 months, it started doing the "I can't jug gas at normal speed anymore I'm too old for that" thing. I went under disconnected all hoses from canister blew air in a lot of them I even had to replace some of them as some of the metal ones broke. With everything disconnected I was thinking if it had to do with the canister or the electronic valves it would have vented straight out but it still did it so I'm guessing either the piping TO The vent valve is jammed OR the vent valve is stuck.

 

Theres also a little "DEVICE" I don't know its name on the passenger's side close to the outrigger plate that has metal pipes going to it, anyone know what that is? A hose on that thing is also broken... haven't had a problem in 6 months but still curious to what its for!

 

Thanks