Help me pass emissions with my weber

[Lachlan]

So it's time to register my 81 Brat in Albuquerque, and I went in for an emissions test. Failed miserably at high rpm (2410). HCs were at 834, limit is 220. CO is at 11.26, limit is 1.2. Didn't even test at low rpm. Apparently my car was originally a California car, but I've replaced the Carb with a weber 32/36 DGV. PO had an aftermarket exhaust installed (dual, but with a cross-over pipe) including an aftermarket cat on each side. Advance is 10*. My jets are:

 

Primary/Secondary Main: 130

Primary/Secondary idle: 50

Primary air corrector: 170

secondary air corrector: 160

 

Iv'e never had to fix a car for emissions before, so this is a new part of the ea-81 adventure for me. Any tips are appreciated!

[biffanyus]

Ive heard some people say you wont pass with the weber. Might have to put the stock carb on, pass and then switch back to the weber... Im not sure of this but I thought Ive seen it posted B4 but please ask the experts...

[El Presidente]

Yeah, your way off. I've heard 32/36 webers can be really hard to get to pass emissions. They're designed for performance, not emissions. Give it a tune up for starters. Can you lean it out? at 2400 RPM you might still be in the idle circuit. Is your EGR system hooked up? That will affect high rpm emmisions

 

If you are running in the main circuit at 2400 RPM, bigger air correctors will make your main circuit kick in later making it run off your idle circuit at higher RPM's, but you might develop a dead spot right were you need to test.

 

If your running ethanol free gas, put some ethanol gas in it. Shade tree method is to put denatured alcohol from home depot in the tank just for testing..I think %30 ethanol to gasoline is the right mix. I can't recommend it though because I've never done it. Theres stuff you can buy at Napa that you put in your tank to pass its guaranteed too, but I think its just straight ethanol.

 

If you can afford the time and material to put a stock carb on, just to pass, you could do that. A lot of guys in CA just swap to there horrible stock setups to pass and then put it back in the box and go back to a good carb and no cat for the rest of the year.

 

Try to find a "work around". It can get you in trouble doing these methods, so continue with caution.

 

-Can you register it at a relatives/buddies house in an area that doesn't test? some state only require testing within city limits or urban areas.

 

-Its 31 years old, can you get collector plates? Some state don't require testing on collector vehicles, but also say you can't daily driver them...who's really gonna watch your odometer?...worst case, you just disable the odometer so it doesn't work. You may also be exempt from tabs too.

 

-Can you find a sketchy testing location or grease some palms? If it costs you $250 to swap to a stock carb to pass and you can slide the testing guy $200, or better $100, to pass you, why not, this is also done in CA to pass emissions as well as other states. If they work for the state, be careful though.

 

Get the full test next time even if there's gas rolling out the tail pipe, it will give you a base line to tweek things from to pass

 

Good luck

[Lachlan]

Yeah, your way off. I've heard 32/36 webers can be really hard to get to pass emissions. They're designed for performance, not emissions. Give it a tune up for starters. Can you lean it out? at 2400 RPM you might still be in the idle circuit. Is your EGR system hooked up? That will affect high rpm emmisions

 

If you are running in the main circuit at 2400 RPM, bigger air correctors will make your main circuit kick in later making it run off your idle circuit at higher RPM's, but you might develop a dead spot right were you need to test.

 

If your running ethanol free gas, put some ethanol gas in it. Shade tree method is to put denatured alcohol from home depot in the tank just for testing..I think %30 ethanol to gasoline is the right mix. I can't recommend it though because I've never done it. Theres stuff you can buy at Napa that you put in your tank to pass its guaranteed too, but I think its just straight ethanol.

 

If you can afford the time and material to put a stock carb on, just to pass, you could do that. A lot of guys in CA just swap to there horrible stock setups to pass and then put it back in the box and go back to a good carb and no cat for the rest of the year.

 

Try to find a "work around". It can get you in trouble doing these methods, so continue with caution.

 

-Can you register it at a relatives/buddies house in an area that doesn't test? some state only require testing within city limits or urban areas.

 

-Its 31 years old, can you get collector plates? Some state don't require testing on collector vehicles, but also say you can't daily driver them...who's really gonna watch your odometer?...worst case, you just disable the odometer so it doesn't work. You may also be exempt from tabs too.

 

-Can you find a sketchy testing location or grease some palms? If it costs you $250 to swap to a stock carb to pass and you can slide the testing guy $200, or better $100, to pass you, why not, this is also done in CA to pass emissions as well as other states. If they work for the state, be careful though.

 

Get the full test next time even if there's gas rolling out the tail pipe, it will give you a base line to tweek things from to pass

 

Good luck

 

Thanks for the tips. I'd like to try tuning it right before I go another route, as I need to do that for emissions or not. I do still have the EGR valve hooked up, and I just cleaned it out too. Canister is in place. I'm new to carbs, so I have to learn all about tuning them.

The carb came stock with 140 main jets, so I thought I was leaning it out with 130s. Should I go smaller? I'm at 6100 feet.

 

How do I tell if I'm on the idle circuit or main circuit?

 

Last time I filled up, I'm pretty sure the pump said it had ethanol, but I don't remember the percentage. I'm guessing around 10.

 

NM has a vintage plate, but it's not available until 35 yrs, so I have to figure out something in the mean time

 

As far as the stock carb goes, I could probably put it on in a couple of hours. When I got the brat a month ago, it wasn't running at all. I managed to get it running on the hitachi, but it was putting out about 5 hp. Couldn't go up hill in second. I got the weber mainly because I didn't want to fool with the hitachi, and that goes double now that I know its a california carb.

 

I guess bottom line is first step I need to learn to tune it.

[El Presidente]

If your learning how to tune a carb, you've picked one of the hardest to learn so don't get discouraged. Once you master a Weber, any carter, rochester, or holley will be a peice of cake. I suggest learning what each circuit and jet does and how it affects other parts of the carb. Figure out the emulsion tubes last, because you need to understand how the system works together to under stand emulsion tubes. Google will help a lot.

 

Theres lots of writeups on how to tune a 32/36, but my piece of advice on tuning is, that the motor will just run plain happy when you got it right. It will sound even and balanced(for a Subaru), idle smooth, have good fast power right off the line and the exhaust will have a rounded, slightly sweet smell. Smell your exhaust by diverting about 1/3 to 1/2 of the exhaust stream up with your hand and smell it about 18" away from the diversion. You want it to mix with air so you don't get to much exhaust. If it burns your nose, your lean. If you smell gas your rich. Use your other hand(the one not adjusting) and put it somewhere safe on the motor to feel it run too. Listen to your motor and it will tell you how its doing. When adjusting the air fuel mix, I snap the throttle really fast(REALLY FAST) with my hand...you want it to rev up with no delay..instant power...no bog down then rev up, no stumble, just power. Advice like listening to your motor, feeling it and smelling the exhaust sounds a little like some zenish, hippie bonding love crap, but it works good.

 

Right now, I'm running at 12* advanced and I've been meaning to bump it up more, but I've been lazy. I usually advance timing until I just hear detonation when lugging hard, then back it off 3*or so, depending on the motor. Running your timing might help with emissions, but when learning, go for optimum efficiency and power.

 

Before swapping to smaller jets, know what your doing. If you jet to small, not only will performance suffer, but you can melt a piston too.

 

Once again, don't get discouraged. Once you figure it out, you'll have a skill that is dying off and others will give you beer to tune their rigs:grin:

[Lachlan]

Thanks for the encouragement! Any favorite "tuning webers for dummies" website suggestions are welcome. Exhaust definitly smells of gas. Also, I think the cats are shot, as the temperature is reading about 300* before the cat and 160* after.

[El Presidente]

Yup , your running rich if you smell gas, although you should look for leaking carbon canister hoses or loose tank vents too. I cant really recommend any site or page in particular on Weber tuning. I learned from old High Performance Weber and Clymer manuals, and lots of experience. So just keep on Google and you'll find good pages. I recently put a DFAV(Holley's Weber clone used on early fords) on my GL and needed a "refresher" on emulsion tubes...I found lots of info and many guys asking the same questions as me in several sources, for many cars.

 

I can't help you much with cats, I have much more experience taking them off, or punching them through, than fixing them.

 

Take your time in learning how your carb works, knowing your system means you'll be able to diagnose damn near any problem in a couple minutes. Chicks dig guys with skills:grin:

[Lachlan]

Did some adjusting on the idle circuit, and it seems to be running well at lean best idle. I did notice there's a lot of black liquid sputtering out of the exhaust. I did recently add sea foam to the gas tank and crank case, but the gas tank has been completely emptied since then. Any thoughts on what could cause this?

[bheinen74]

I doubt a weber passes any emission test anyplace...as said they are not that kind of carb.

better just swap to stock carb to pass, then go weber, or else better just sell it to someone who is in a state without testing. you won't ever pass with that weber. please pay attention on this thread for those in emissions testing areas- your weber is not going to pass..

[El Presidente]

I doubt a weber passes any emission test anyplace...as said they are not that kind of carb.

better just swap to stock carb to pass, then go weber, or else better just sell it to someone who is in a state without testing. you won't ever pass with that weber. please pay attention on this thread for those in emissions testing areas- your weber is not going to pass..

 

Check this out, post #7

 

http://www.jeepsunlimited.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1524138

 

This guy got a weber on a Suzuki to pass emissions and assuming it is a samuri he's talking about, it probably has a 1.8L. Although a completely different animal, the size is the same and is a sign of hope. I think my buddy got his 22r toyota pickup to pass, but I can't remember %100. If your rig was a california car, it probably already has a bung for an O2 sensor which you could moniter fuel ratio from using a home made Air/fuel meter(or a professional one). You can really dial things in with one of these and they also work as you drive.

 

Heres how:

 

http://www.scirocco.org/tech/misc/afgauge/af.html

 

Lachlan: The black liquid is probably water mixed with carbon soot from when it was running rich, which is probably nothing to sweat. A little water(not antifreeze) out the tail pipe is normal:grin:

[the sucker king]

I doubt a weber passes any emission test anyplace...as said they are not that kind of carb.

better just swap to stock carb to pass, then go weber, or else better just sell it to someone who is in a state without testing. you won't ever pass with that weber. please pay attention on this thread for those in emissions testing areas- your weber is not going to pass..

 

That's pure crap. I have run very clean, never failing emissions with 2 different webers on 3 different Subaru cars, for the last 7 or so years. Webers are very tunable.

OPs in New Mexico at 6000 feet, I am in Colorado at 5500 feet. Don't know the rules in NM, but they are probably similar numbers-wise to here. The OP had the right idea with trying to make the weber pass before running it through with a stock set-up.

How did it go? I assume it has passed by now, and please share what you did-

[Lachlan]

To be honest, I've been pulling the brat apart in my garage, so it hasn't seen the road in a while, and tuning took a back seat. But then I decided just to title and register in Ohio, where there are no emissions requirements. Problem successfully avoided.

[pressingonward]

Those numbers are insanely high. Your car is running pig rich. I would suspect the Weber is tuned for sea level, and at your elevation there just isn't a whole lot of air, so the jets need to be smaller to reduce the amount of gas.

 

It does not matter what carb you are running, a Weber will pass just as well as any other carb that is tuned right (with the possible exception of a carb that is way too big for the motor or something, but that is not the case here).

 

Unfortunately I have no experience jetting the Weber, but you should be able to find data online for which circuit in the carb controls fuel at 1/4 throttle (I would guess that's about where you'll be at 2,200 rpm), then get jets for that circuit and replace them a step at a time until you find the sweet spot. You'll probably need to play with all of the jetting to get it to really run smooth at all throttle/load conditions, not just that circuit.

 

Your cats are probably dead, they cannot handle extremely rich mixtures without melting down.

 

The black soot coming from your exhaust is carbon from partially burned fuel mixed with water. Again an indication of your rich condition.

 

Let me know if you have any other emissions questions, I've been a Washington State Certified Emissions Tech in the past (doing mechanical engineering now), and I strongly support tuning your car up right vs. faking it through the emissions test.

[edrach]

I can't believe the comments about the weber as being "impossible" to pass emissions. I've had the weber on three Brats and ALL of them passed emissions with flying colors with all the emissions plumbing (except the catalytic converter) removed. The numbers here in WA for HC and CO are the same as you mentioned. Usually the high rpm portion is easy to pass; it's the idle numbers that can be difficult to bring in.

 

At your altitude, there's no questions that the weber would run crazy rich numbers if it was originally jetted for sea level. Lean out the mixture by getting the right jets for your weber. I'm sure Redline can suggest proper jetting for your weber: http://www.redlineweber.com/.

 

Search here in the USMB repair section. I'd be surprised if there's no information on weber tuning. If you can't find it, I have a weber tuning book somewhere in my "stuff" and I could likely scan the pages for you (don't hold your breath, I might need a while to find my manual).

 

There's not as much in the USMB repair forum, but this might be helpful: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=115224&highlight=Weber+tuning

Edited October 30, 2011 by edrach

[edrach]

This might be even more helpful: http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=104935&highlight=Weber+tuning

[spazomatic]

I got my weber to pass emissions....with a gutted catalytic convertor!

the testing center I went to was right around 6500 ft (castle rock, co)

my carb had come from sea level, and sounds set up identical to yours.

after much trial and error, it passed with 115 main jets (it runs stronger with 125s). all the other metering orifices I left alone. make sure it's got new plugs, and that the rest of it's bits and pieces are in good shape (cap, rotor, wires, good oil and air filter, etc)

for the idle, turn the mixture screw in a 1/4 turn at a time until the RPMs begin to drop, then turn it back out a 1/4 to a 1/2 a turn.

 

what carb linbkagfe are you using? if you can get it, use the "universal" style that comes with the weber adapter kit. it doesn't open the carb all the way, and prevents an idiot tech who doesn't know the right way to drive a carbureted car...from opening it up too far.

Good luck!