heartless Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 (edited) 1990 Legacy wagon, NA 2.2, 4EAT, AWD - 216K miles - timing and reseal done June 4th, this year (roughly 2000 miles ago) Been running fine to this point.... She suddenly started giving me problems - driving home friday, got on it just a little turning a left corner (traffic coming) she started coughing, losing power, drove the 1/2 mile to the next corner wondering if she was gonna quit completely on me, turned the next corner (right) and she seemed to straighten up - drove the 2 miles to home no problem. didnt go anywhere saturday. Sunday, we headed into town for RC car speed trials. Car ran fine all the way into town - 30 miles or so. spent the afternoon playing with the RC cars, watching others, etc - got ready to leave, and she doesnt want to start/stay running - start, spit, sputter, stall - try again hit the throttle when she catches, revs, spit, sputter, stall. attempt this several times over about 10-15 minutes, she finally starts and stays running with no assistance - ok, off we go - to the gas station (was getting low - about 1/4 tank) fill up and try to start and again, the same nonsense - got disgusted, and pushed it off to the side - try again, and she suddenly starts and runs fine - ok, pull out of the station, wait at the light for a left turn - make it around the corner and she dies - coasted off into a parking lot. Called a friend, got a ride home - took truck & trailer into town to get the car - get ready to load her up - she starts and runs fine up onto the trailer. get home, she starts and runs fine to get off the trailer... there is NO CEL. I am at a loss as to what is happening with this car - could she have jumped time? if so, why does she run fine one minute, and the next thing she wont run at all, then suddenly run fine again? all with no CEL??? HELP Please!!! Edited July 14, 2011 by heartless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 Timing doesn't jump and then just magically jump back. It's not timing I can assure you. You have what sounds like a fuel delivery problem. A failing fuel pump can cause symptoms similar to this. A fuel pressure gauge will tell you if the pump is not making the correct pressure. Other than that, a sticky idle control valve can cause issues like this, as well as several of sensors on the engine. Throttle position, coolant temp, cam/crank signal. No CEL on an OBD1 car is no surprise. I always say the engine could be on fire and OBD1 still wouldn't throw a code. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 I always say the engine could be on fire and OBD1 still wouldn't throw a code. eek, lets not go there!! i didnt think that it was timing when it would run fine in between ... well, guess it is time to try swapping fuel pumps (have parts cars here) dont have a fuel pressure guage and no money to buy one either - not to mention wouldnt have any idea how to hook one up on this car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 I would replace the fuel pump filter first to see if that helps. If not, yea, I think it could be the fuel pump. Over all, it sure sounds like a fuel delivery problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 will see about changing fuel filters - main filter was replaced when i got the car 2-3 yrs ago - wouldnt hurt to do it again... by fuel pump filter, i am guessing you mean the one in the tank on the pick-up, right? right now, i just dont trust it enough to go much of anywhere with it until i know i have this sorted out i am now reduced to driving the fuel sucking dodge ram pu... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 will see about changing fuel filters - main filter was replaced when i got the car 2-3 yrs ago - wouldnt hurt to do it again... by fuel pump filter, i am guessing you mean the one in the tank on the pick-up, right? right now, i just dont trust it enough to go much of anywhere with it until i know i have this sorted out i am now reduced to driving the fuel sucking dodge ram pu... I have not changed a Subie fuel pump, so don't know for sure where it is located. However, like most cars these days, I think it will be an in tank pump. If so, best to swap out when fuel tank is low. By any chance, did your problem begin just after getting a new tank of gas? If so, it is possible that your problem could be the result of bad fuel. Buying gas that is contaminated with water does cause nasty driveability problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 I have not changed a Subie fuel pump, so don't know for sure where it is located. However, like most cars these days, I think it will be an in tank pump. If so, best to swap out when fuel tank is low. uh, yeah, about that - just filled it up :-\ on the legacy (or at least the 1st gen) it is an in tank pump - actually, it has two - main pump to get fuel to the engine, secondary pump to pump fuel from one side of the tank, over the hump to the other side... By any chance, did your problem begin just after getting a new tank of gas? If so, it is possible that your problem could be the result of bad fuel. Buying gas that is contaminated with water does cause nasty driveability problems. no, the problem began with fuel level between 1/2 & 1/4 tank, continued to be a problem after fill up from a trusted station. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted July 11, 2011 Share Posted July 11, 2011 uh, yeah, about that - just filled it up :-\on the legacy (or at least the 1st gen) it is an in tank pump - actually, it has two - main pump to get fuel to the engine, secondary pump to pump fuel from one side of the tank, over the hump to the other side... no, the problem began with fuel level between 1/2 & 1/4 tank, continued to be a problem after fill up from a trusted station. From what you have just written, then I am really leaning toward the main fuel pump being bad. It is a rather nasty job to replace an in tank pump. Not particularly difficult, just nasty. Breathing gasoline fumes will give you a bad buzz, and make you sick, if you don't take frequent breaks to breath fresh air. I have replaced several on VWs, but not on Subies, but I don't think there could be much difference in the R & R process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 11, 2011 Author Share Posted July 11, 2011 one really nice thing about the subaru's is the access plate - have been in there before to unplug the fuel pump in order to depressurize the system before R&R on injectors... my fear is going to be the rust encrusted bolts holding the pump in the tank...it isnt gonna be pretty from what I have seen of it. hopefully the parts cars arent as bad, but i'm not gonna hold my breath... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) ok, a little new info on my issue... 1 - found a small vacuum line that was disconnected (see pics) the hose was actually replaced since it was as hard as a rock... the second pic shows where the ends attach...looks like maybe egr switch??? could this cause running issues? (location is passenger side under the intake) 2 - managed to get the nuts off the fuel pump plate without breaking anything and got it out of the car for inspection - found tiny little metal shavings clinging to one side of the pump bracket and all over the pickup screen - surely this is not normal?? is the pump self destructing and the shavings are from it? i cant imagine where else they would be coming from... PLEASE - somebody help! Edited July 14, 2011 by heartless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Evap purge control solenoid. That broken hose would cause a small vacuum leak, which may make it idle a bit funny, but would not be intermittent. You're that much closer to getting it running right though. Metal shavings on the pump... It is magnetic, so steel/iron will be attracted to it. Any metal shavings that fell off of the screws during removal of the plate would have floated right over to the pump body on the way down. On the other hand, it could very well be bits from inside the pump that have made their way through the fuel system back to the tank where they would then get stuck to the side of the pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Evap purge control solenoid. That broken hose would cause a small vacuum leak, which may make it idle a bit funny, but would not be intermittent. You're that much closer to getting it running right though. gee thanks Metal shavings on the pump...It is magnetic, so steel/iron will be attracted to it. Any metal shavings that fell off of the screws during removal of the plate would have floated right over to the pump body on the way down. um, no screws - small studs facing up (out) with nuts - so that would not explain the shavings... :-\ On the other hand, it could very well be bits from inside the pump that have made their way through the fuel system back to the tank where they would then get stuck to the side of the pump. this is what I am afraid of there was enough shavings that the side of the braket looked hairy for about 2.5 inches.... ok, so, pulled the pump out of the AWD parts car - ewww, that thing looks nasty - been sitting in an empty tank for far too long.... pulled the one out of the FWD parts car - nice clean pump, screen, etc... now I know that there are two different part numbers for AWD vs FWD - but in theory - could i make this FWD pump work in my AWD car???????? are there flow differences that could cause the FWD pump to burn out faster in an AWD car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnceggleston Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 the major difference between AWD and FWD gas tanks is that the AWD tanks has 2 side, 2 fuel gauge sending uniots and 2 fuel pick ups. the fuel tan straddles the drive shaft. my guess is that the actual pumps are interchangeable. opposede forces list the fuel pump for the FWD car separately. but the one for the AWD car is part of an assembly and no part number is given. of course http://opposedforces.com/parts does not actually go back to the 90 legacy, so ..... i'd try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 the major difference between AWD and FWD gas tanks is that the AWD tanks has 2 side, 2 fuel gauge sending uniots and 2 fuel pick ups. the fuel tan straddles the drive shaft. my guess is that the actual pumps are interchangeable. opposede forces list the fuel pump for the FWD car separately. but the one for the AWD car is part of an assembly and no part number is given. of course http://opposedforces.com/parts does not actually go back to the 90 legacy, so ..... i'd try it. Thanks for the input John. looking at them side by side, they look very much alike - minor differences in the wiring connections - one is bent at 90* the other is straight - and the rubber mount at the bottom is slightly different, but other than that...not much noticable difference between them... guess it is time to get adventurous and give it a shot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 thinking i should have added one more small piece of info regarding when this problem started - it was ungodly hot (for north central WI) and fairly humid out - sunday was around 90*F and about 75-80% humidity has been much cooler & drier the last few days - mid 70's and about 40% humidity - and the car seems to run much better.... looking at ungodly hot again this coming weekend with high humidity again :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 thinking i should have added one more small piece of info regarding when this problem started - it was ungodly hot (for north central WI) and fairly humid out - sunday was around 90*F and about 75-80% humidity has been much cooler & drier the last few days - mid 70's and about 40% humidity - and the car seems to run much better.... looking at ungodly hot again this coming weekend with high humidity again :-\ With that high heat and humidity, could you have had vapor lock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 With that high heat and humidity, could you have had vapor lock? i suppose it's possible, but the car had been sitting for several hours when it was time to leave and it just would not start & run right - so i dunno... did have a car once that vapor locked while driving it (not a subaru) - that sucked - but it would clear itself after sitting for a while... also have a lawnmower that will do that if it gets too warm... took the hood off it and it runs fine now! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMattyD Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Hi, I did not have this problem yet with my Subaru, but I just got done with a similar experience with my 1995 Nissan Quest. Here is how it went: Intermittent sluggishness, hesitation, or outright failure to run. Very spotty symptoms, but always worse when outside temp and engine were hot. After letting the car sit for 20 min. in the parking lot when hot, would often be difficult or impossible to start or keep running. When it cooled down for a few hours, it would be fine! I spent hundreds of dollars and many days and hours working on ignition related issues because I was too stubborn to buy a fuel pressure gauge. Finally, I went to Harbor Freight, and bought their Fuel Injection Pressure Tester for about 19 dollars, hooked it up and found my fuel pressure was 14 psi when it should have been 43. The pump was operating, but just barely keeping enough pressure for the car to run. When it would get hot outside, either the pump would reduce in effectiveness, or some fuel was vaporizing in the lines causing the problems. Replacing the fuel pump solved all the problems immediately, and the fuel pressure was back up to 43 where it should have been. My advice to you is to get a cheap fuel pressure gauge now, and test the fuel pressure to see if it is abnormal. If so, you will have immediate verification that that is your problem. You will also be able to determine if your old pump from your parts car is working properly. The gauge is simple to use. It thas a T-fitting that you use to connect it into the fuel line between the fuel filter outlet and the engine. Use thread tape to seal the threads on the cheap HF gauge to T-fitting or it will leak. Seriously, 20 bucks for a real knowledge of what is happening is not a big deal. If there is no harbor freight near you, you could order it online, or even maybe borrow one from a friend, or a big parts store like autozone, or whatever you have in your area. I cannot believe I waited so long to purchase mine. It would have saved a lot of time, money, and stress if I had checked that first... Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 well, crap, crap, crap - swapped out the pump, get everything put back in, brand new fuel filter too - started and let it idle for about 10 minutes - no hiccups, no problems noted during this time. decided to try a test run - left car idling, grabbed my wallet and a couple netflix movies that needed to be returned - jump in the car and set out. didnt make it half a mile and it started to falter, cough and finally stalled restarted fine, turned around and came back home - it died again pulling into the driveway. so back to square one....it is a used pump, so it is possible it is also bad....that, or I have an electrical problem :-\ Hi Matt, and thanks for responding... When it cooled down for a few hours, it would be fine!my car had been sitting for about 4 hours and refused to start... have already determined that I need the HF guage if i am going to get any kind of fuel pressure reading and the nearest HF is an hour away. none of the local parts places sell one with a T fitting around here - all they carry are the schrader valve type - wont work. had one guy insist i HAD to have a schrader fitting on there somewhere - yeah, right, ok.... dang it all - i really cant afford this right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Two bad fuel pumps chances are pretty slim. Chance is there, but slim. Move on to the next possibility. (I hate to have you toss parts at it, I really thought it would be fuel pump related) Temp sensor, hook up a multi meter to it and check the resistance reading when the engine is running. ( especially when it starts running stupid) If you're not sure I don't believe it's too difficult to swap on the older engines that don't have the giant wire harness in the way. Unplugging it should set the ECU to open? loop mode, which will tell it to ignore certain inputs and run on default settings. Might also try unplugging the O2 sensor to see if that clears it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 (edited) Two bad fuel pumps chances are pretty slim. Chance is there, but slim. Move on to the next possibility. (I hate to have you toss parts at it, I really thought it would be fuel pump related) well...., it is possible - the pump i swapped in is from a FWD car that has been sitting for about 2 yrs...was a running, driving car when we got our hands on it tho... Temp sensor, hook up a multi meter to it and check the resistance reading when the engine is running. ( especially when it starts running stupid) If you're not sure I don't believe it's too difficult to swap on the older engines that don't have the giant wire harness in the way. Unplugging it should set the ECU to open? loop mode, which will tell it to ignore certain inputs and run on default settings. am more than willing to try this but have no idea what kind of readings I should be getting - danged if i can find any kind of values in the FSM for ANY of the sensors. Never mind - i just found the info - was looking in the wrong place! DOH! Might also try unplugging the O2 sensor to see if that clears it up.O2 was replaced last year - symptoms then were VERY different than what i am getting now... Edited July 15, 2011 by heartless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) well - finally got the right type of fuel pressure testing guage last night... got it hooked up this morning, and (edited - read wrong scale) should be 26-30psi according to FSM amazing what having the right diagnostic tools can do for you! (when you read them correctly....) also want to thank BigMattyD for all of the great info regarding the HF guage via PM - so THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! just for grins & giggles, I am going to put the old pump back in, just to verify .... Edited July 18, 2011 by heartless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) never mind.... Edited July 18, 2011 by heartless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMattyD Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 (edited) You're welcome. If you want to be more thorough, you can try to attach the gauge right at the pump outlet at the fuel tank to make sure it is not a fuel line restriction between the pump and the engine bay. Make sure you attach the gauge after you replace the pump, so that when you install the new fuel pump you can see if the pressure is correct. If the pressure is still low, you may still have more work to do. Also, you may want to check the calibration of the fuel pressure gauge, considering it is from harbor freight. I found my HF gauge to be accurate, but you never know with the Chinese made stuff. To check the calibration, I applied pressure from my air compressor to the gauge, and it was the same as the pressure gauge on my compressor. Matt Edited July 17, 2011 by BigMattyD added info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 well, except for the thanks to Matt - scratch everything i posted earlier... (i was looking at the wrong scale on the guage ) ok, so here is the latest... checked power supply to pump - FSM says 10v minimum - got 11.4 - check fuel guage is still hooked up, plug pump back in, start car (realize was looking at wrong scale earlier - doh) ok, pressure reads 29-30 psi suddenly starts to stumble and finally stalls - fuel pressure remains steady the whole time until engine actually stalls, when pressure jumps up to around 40psi. did notice a humming sound in the engine bay after it stalled - not sure from what, but near the firewall...goes away after turning key off, does not come back with key turned back on... darn thing finally threw a code, but it was getting too dark to go any further tonight - will deal with it tomorrow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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