Engine R&R/Swap for 92 Loyale

[Fullagas]

I just bought a 92 Loyale wagon and had driven about 10 miles when it lost power and thin white smoke came out the back. Pulled right over, but looks like the engine is toast. Very hard to start, almost no power and at least one cylinder isn't firing judging by the sound. The seller said it ran hot on very hot days, but it didn't make it out of the county. Turns out one fan wasn't working, the gauges weren't either, thanks to someone previously having fried a fusible link. There's coolant in the oil (milky). Eeerrgh, not the re-entry to Soobs I had planned!

What I'd like is advice on which way to go. Should I fix this engine, replace it with the same from a salvage yard, or upgrade? I'm very mechanical, former specialty machine tool builder and have overhauled a few VW's in the past. Very much a Soob noob, owned one briefly about 15 years ago. Is this an EA82? Thanks for any & all advice!!

Edited August 4, 2011 by Fullagas

[The FNG]

Kinda in the same boat as you. So, you have an EA82 probably single point fuel injection (SPFI). It is a pretty easy engine to work on from my experience, although I have really not had all that much experience with them. I am going to rebuild mine, as I don't have the money to buy one in great running shape, and I definitely can't afford the EJ22 upgrade right now. It can be a tough choice, for me, I just want mine back on the road asap and for as little as possible.

[GeneralDisorder]

Do the EJ22 swap. You won't regret it. You will find plenty of info in the retrofitting forum.

 

GD

[idosubaru]

how many miles on the motor?

 

what kind of expectations/driving/usage/mileage you want. the higher the mileage and reliability expectations the more likely it is you won't want this motor. EA engines do fine with a reseal, but the overheating is a little unnerving. seems like a shady seller? how badly was this thing overheated? long term or severe overheats do bad things to oil and rod/main bearings and they can fail.

[Fullagas]

FNG, I don't know which it is. Will find out.

 

GD, I'm leaning that way. Not my DD, but don't want it down for a long period. Won't do a quick fix and dump on someone else either.

 

GG, 177K. What's a reseal? I'm undecided on how long I'll keep it now. If I go with the EJ22, how hard is an OH? It's a 5-speed AWD (thumb button). The long-term overheats have me worried too. I doubt I'll leave the bottom end alone.

 

The seller was honest about occasional overheats. I drove the car 30 min. the day before, was fine afterwards and didn't seem hot. Only one fan was running tho, thermofan wasn't running with engine on after driving and it was 85 degrees. He'd owned it 4 years, was a Soob fan (2 others in his family) and had good maint records. The car is very nice, lived in NM 17 years so tiny amount of rust. Looks like I have an unexpected project.

[idosubaru]

GG, 177K. What's a reseal?.

my bad, headgasket job.

 

sounds like a decent enough prior owner. if you got good vibes it wasn't burnt up there's a good chance the bottom end is fine. smell the oil!?

 

EJ22 will require the wiring and ECU as there's no compatabiliity with EA82 stuff. but you only need an adapter plate to attach it to the EA82 trans (unless you're using an EJ trans), other than that they fit in the motor mounts and engine bay just fine. there's a good write up, might want to scan that EJ swap write up. EJ18 would be the same basic swap as an EJ22 but they can be had cheaper typically if price is any concern.

 

lower end rebuilds aren't typically done too often on these motors for a variety of reasons but it can be done.

[Fullagas]

GG, I'm thinking headgasket job now. The overheat was I hope stopped mid-event. The oil wasn't contaminated until we added coolant. Is it hard doing the heads without pulling the engine? Having the engine pulled makes sense should anything else pop up.

 

I'm thinking of getting a snowmobile jack if I do pull the motor. Workbenches are too high (tho I could stand on a box like an early Alan Ladd), having an adjustable height would save on the back.

[idosubaru]

if it's time for a clutch, then pull the engine. if you're doing it all by hand (no air/electric tools), pulling the engine gets some extra sway.

 

if you're doing it all in one day and have a bad back then maybe the engine should be pulled.

 

get some air/electric tools if you don't have any. it's nice to zip out all the intake/cam/head bolts.

 

it's a topic that varies wildly and is basically personal preference. i do not pull engines on older gen vehicles, they're too easy to do in the car for me to bother wasting the time. i've definitely wasted more time and had more glitches on an engine pull/install than i have with doing headgaskets in a car. i can have the passengers side head off before an engine would be pulled out, so it's a no brainer for me. i even leave the engines in for ER27's (the 6 cylinder version of the EA82 - same pistons and valves). roughly 50% more bolts and i still leave those in.

 

get yourself a high quality cleaner - those rubber-made-for-aluminum (usually yellow i think from NAPA) discs to clean the block surface off with. insert it in a drill. if you're going to be cleaning surfaces by hand, definitely pull the engine, that just takes forever anyway cleaning by hand. with a drill though it cleans right up.

 

GD on the other hand, as well as many others, always pull the motors.

 

i would not expect the 30-minute engine pull and install comments seen on here sometimes. while maybe possible that certainly is not an average to be expected every time.

[idosubaru]

use Fel Pro permatorque headgaskets by the way. highly recommended for the EA82/ER27 engines and they dont' require a retorque like the manual suggests.

[GeneralDisorder]

If you follow a few simple rules - pulling the engine is quick and easy. You disconnect everything, put the car on jack-stands, and then you use a bottle jack under the transmission to push the engine out of the cradle. Then you hoist it out with a cherry picker. Installation is the reverse - just leave the transmission jacked up on the bottle jack till you are ready to reinstall.

 

Easily done in about one to two hours. Totally worth the extra time when doing a reseal as it allows you to better clean the head gasket surfaces. Get a cheap engine stand to do the assembly on.

 

GD

[92_rugby_subie]

If you follow a few simple rules - pulling the engine is quick and easy. You disconnect everything, put the car on jack-stands, and then you use a bottle jack under the transmission to push the engine out of the cradle. Then you hoist it out with a cherry picker. Installation is the reverse - just leave the transmission jacked up on the bottle jack till you are ready to reinstall.

 

Easily done in about one to two hours. Totally worth the extra time when doing a reseal as it allows you to better clean the head gasket surfaces. Get a cheap engine stand to do the assembly on.

 

GD

 

+1 I have to do either headgaskets on my EA82 or put in another motor (which I planned to do for the higher compression of the SPFI EA82) and although Im not even that experienced with swapping motors (besides what GD has taught me) I went over my motor and looked at everything Id have to unbolt, disconnect, set aside etc and I could have the motor pulled in about 45 mins TOPS and then probably an hour put back in (gotta make sure everything is connected right)

[GRANDLOYALE]

Hey, dont mean to dig up the dead thread, but I want to know if an Impreza EJ18 motor would be a good fit????

 

Everyone mentions the EJ22 as the ideal swap.  What makes it ideal? I'm not a smarty pants, I honestly dont know what makes it Idea over other choices like the 1.8L EJ18.  

 

I'll keep poking around this forum to try and learn more about retrofitting (swapping) out a EA82 for something better.

[Loyale 2.7 Turbo]

Well, the Increased Power from the EJ22 over the EA82, Also the EJ22 is a common engine so you could find parts easier, and the early ones are Non-Interference, Which means that if the Timing Belt snaps, there won't be internal damage: EJ22 is a BulletProof engine.

 

Swapping the EA82 with an EJ18 is Keeping the same 1.8L Displacement, somehow means too much work for Li'l Gain.

 

Kind Regards.

[djellum]

the EJ22 somewhere along the line changed the design and ended up with an increase in HP and in (supposed) fuel economy.  I dont know but it seems to be a bit easier to find a 2.2 or 2.5 as well, but I dont know if that is just luck of the draw or if they actually produced more.

 

going off the basic wiki ratings, the ej18 was 110-120 hp, ej22 was around 140 hp, and they increased from there.

 

the swap as I understand it is basically the same, If you have an EJ18 laying around I doubt I would seek a 2.2, but if you have to source a motor anyway, id go for more powa.

[NorthWet]

I am not an expert on EJ engines (or much else), but this should be reasonably accurate:

 

The EJ18 has the same weight and external dimensions as the EJ22, but less power.  Most people seem interested in more power if they do an EJ conversion.

 

In the US, the EJ18 came on the down-market Imprezas; should be lots of them around the PNW.  The EJ18 lacked some sophistication in engine management, most notably lacking a knock sensor; this would result in more conservative factory tuning.  EJ22 intake manifold/wiring/engine control is supposed to be a direct fit to the EJ18 engine, mitigating this disadvantage.

[GRANDLOYALE]

Very good.  Thanks for the info.

 

I've been doing some more reading in the past few days and all that each of you have added is accurate. 

 

When I'd asked the question I didnt know that the EJ22 was a SLAM DUNK.  Over the past few days I've discovered that the EJ18 (Impreza motor) is not an easy swap and it requires a major re-working of the harness and needs transmission adapters too.  DONT QUOTE ME!  I'm going off of internet info here.  I'm just trying to get a fix on the options before I buy my first wagon.

 

I only ask because I have am having a hard time deciding which wagon I want to buy.  Both the GL/Loyale wagon and the Legacy wagon are great machines in their own right.  The GL/Loyale was given a motor w/ a poor track record and the Legacy has the a bit more weight to carry around.

 

Knowing that the EJ22 is a fairly easy swap with little very little modification is good to know it.  Sort of makes the GL/Loyale look a bit more attractive now.  I could buy a GL / Loyale and drive it till the motor gives me grief, then upgrade to a 2.2L and feel the power....OR I could buy a GL / Loyale w/ a blown motor for dirt cheap and slide the 2.2L in right off the bat.

 

Good to know.

 

This forum is full of great info and resources. 

 

Thanks much.

Edited August 8, 2013 by GRANDLOYALE

[GRANDLOYALE]

Woops, tried to edit my post above and clicked on quote instead.  

Edited August 8, 2013 by GRANDLOYALE

[Subruise]

the amount of wiring hackage needed for an ej18 axnd an ej22 are exactly the same, only you go faster with the more abundant ej22.

 

Personally, Id LOVE to run ej in my rig(s) i dont have the $1000 to $1500 start to finish to make that happen (yet). rebuilding an ea82 is caveman easy, like you can redurface your own heads http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/122588-diy-head-resurfacing-or-post-apocalyptic-machine-shop-techniques/. other than that make sure you have a torque wrench. 

[Crazyeights]

the amount of wiring hackage needed for an ej18 axnd an ej22 are exactly the same, only you go faster with the more abundant ej22.

 

Personally, Id LOVE to run ej in my rig(s) i dont have the $1000 to $1500 start to finish to make that happen (yet). rebuilding an ea82 is caveman easy, like you can redurface your own heads http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/122588-diy-head-resurfacing-or-post-apocalyptic-machine-shop-techniques/. other than that make sure you have a torque wrench. 

If the EA82 is a N/A one it will probably last forever once rebuilt.

[GRANDLOYALE]

the amount of wiring hackage needed for an ej18 axnd an ej22 are exactly the same, only you go faster with the more abundant ej22.

 

Personally, Id LOVE to run ej in my rig(s) i dont have the $1000 to $1500 start to finish to make that happen (yet). rebuilding an ea82 is caveman easy, like you can redurface your own heads http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/topic/122588-diy-head-resurfacing-or-post-apocalyptic-machine-shop-techniques/. other than that make sure you have a torque wrench. 

I thought that everyone wanted to ditch the EA82 because of the bad head design, the bad OHC, dual timing belts and The depleted supply of rebuilt heads?  But you're saying that you prefer the EA82 due to its simplicity.  I'd love to find out more of what you enjoy about the EA82.  Any info (good or bad) will be a great help to me.  Thanks much Subruise

 

If the EA82 is a N/A one it will probably last forever once rebuilt.

When you say N/A you are referring to Naturally Aspirated Right?     IE Non-Turbo?

I have read that the Turbo engine dont last as long as the non-turbo engines.  So are all the bad vibes about the EA82 motor a bunch of hype?  If you'd like to share some positive info on the EA82 I'd love to hear it.  All info & experiences are food for thought here.  Thanks much Crazy8's  

 

I've called around to the local head rebuilders and Subaru repair shops & all of them say "Hey man, there aint no more heads! EA82's are a dead end!"  But when I go to the local bone yard here in Portland, I often see 5 GL's or Loyales in the yard, all which have complete, untouched motors (and they usually have 250K on the odometer too!!).  But for the head rebuilders to say "THERE AINT NO MORE" is a bunch of crap right, there's a bunch in the bone yard that might be rebuildable.

 

I read the tech article EA2EJ today on my lunch break.  Great write up on how to do the 2.2L swap.  Lots of good info.  After reading that I realized that dropping an EJ22 into a GL / LOYALE is not as simple as it sounds.  It is quite involved and probably above my skill level.  Not to mention the amount of time needed to make sure you connected each wire to the right spot.  If I need to do a motor swap on my daily driver, it needs to be done in 1 week or less (depending on how much vacation & sick time I have).  The electrical harness swap gives me the shakes man.  That looks like a real maze.

 

I've rebuilt a few motors...that I understand. 

 

So tell me what you think, Rebuild an EA82 because it is Tractor simple (compared to the EJ22) and because the N/A EA82 can last a long time if you treat it nice  -  OR  -  Skip the GL / Loyale all together due to the bad heads & low power and buy a Legacy w/ the EJ22 and treat it nice.

 

Any opinions I'd love to hear.

Edited August 9, 2013 by GRANDLOYALE

[MilesFox]

Based on my experience, you will be able to re-do the head gaskets on the ea82 and call it a day. Pulling the engine gives you better acesss to doing engine seals. Do replace the cam and crank seals at least.

 

For cost effective, you can run the existing belts until you want to buy new ones. I suggest this for 2 reasons: 1 if the  belt is not broken, it is still working, and 2: Run without covers. Take them all off inner and outer. You have to remove them to pull the heads. just throw them away. The next time you have to service the belts, you can replace them with 2 tools in 20 minutes, and it saves you from having to remove the crank pulley and the ac/alternator assembly the next time.

 

From my experience, i have re HG'd several overheated ea82's, including ones with milkshake in the oil and turbo, and never had a poroblem just slapping on heads and go. I have never bothered to re-surface the heads and been just fine. IT may sound like bad advice, but none of them have ever failed. The ea82 is a pretty rugged piece when it comes down to the simple mechanics of it. I have seen running ea82's with the heads on backwards and parts missing from inside the oil pump.

[Gloyale]

I thought that everyone wanted to ditch the EA82 because of the bad head design, the bad OHC, dual timing belts and The depleted supply of rebuilt heads?  But you're saying that you prefer the EA82 due to its simplicity.  I'd love to find out more of what you enjoy about the EA82.  Any info (good or bad) will be a great help to me.  Thanks much Subruise

 

When you say N/A you are referring to Naturally Aspirated Right?     IE Non-Turbo?

I have read that the Turbo engine dont last as long as the non-turbo engines.  So are all the bad vibes about the EA82 motor a bunch of hype?  If you'd like to share some positive info on the EA82 I'd love to hear it.  All info & experiences are food for thought here.  Thanks much Crazy8's  

 

I've called around to the local head rebuilders and Subaru repair shops & all of them say "Hey man, there aint no more heads! EA82's are a dead end!"  But when I go to the local bone yard here in Portland, I often see 5 GL's or Loyales in the yard, all which have complete, untouched motors (and they usually have 250K on the odometer too!!).  But for the head rebuilders to say "THERE AINT NO MORE" is a bunch of crap right, there's a bunch in the bone yard that might be rebuildable.

 

I read the tech article EA2EJ today on my lunch break.  Great write up on how to do the 2.2L swap.  Lots of good info.  After reading that I realized that dropping an EJ22 into a GL / LOYALE is not as simple as it sounds.  It is quite involved and probably above my skill level.  Not to mention the amount of time needed to make sure you connected each wire to the right spot.  If I need to do a motor swap on my daily driver, it needs to be done in 1 week or less (depending on how much vacation & sick time I have).  The electrical harness swap gives me the shakes man.  That looks like a real maze.

 

I've rebuilt a few motors...that I understand. 

 

So tell me what you think, Rebuild an EA82 because it is Tractor simple (compared to the EJ22) and because the N/A EA82 can last a long time if you treat it nice  -  OR  -  Skip the GL / Loyale all together due to the bad heads & low power and buy a Legacy w/ the EJ22 and treat it nice.

 

Any opinions I'd love to hear.

 

EJ22 is a much simpler engine to work on than an EA82.

 

That said, an EA82 is a solid engine, revs smooth, makes decent power/mileage ratio........I would skip rebuilding an overheated one and just buy a used one from a u-pullit, and reseal that one.

 

You may be fine rebuilding the one you've got, but if it's run with milky oil for a long time, the main and rod bearings are shot.