I'm no mechanic, but this seems weird

[upDUHcreek]

My new to me 99 forester(2.5 SOHC w/ 150k miles) started missing, but never showed a check engine light. I swaped out the plugs and wires, and that didn't fix the misfire, it started showing the dreaded p 0420 code almost immediatly after I swapped the plugs and wires. I need to find out exactly what's causing this misfire and get it fixed ASAP. Hopefully before the CC is completly ruined by the unburned fuel in the exaust system, if it's not already too late.

 

I was frustrated by the local parts store when they told me there is no book for this year vehicle. They offer one that covers all Soobies up till 98, then all other books start at 2000. HELP!

 

Thanks

Charlie

[idosubaru]

engine wise your 99 will be the same as 2000+ EJ25's.

 

coil pack (swap in a used one, new are too expensive). they can also be tested.

[GeneralDisorder]

Since things got worse with your plug/wire combo - make sure you are using NGK plugs and either NGK or OEM wires - other brands of either have proven troublesome.

 

Test your coil pack for sure. Note that there are two coils in there - the primiary side of each should be about 1 Ohm and the secondary side should be about 15 to 20k Ohms for a good, hot spark.

 

P0420 code is related to catalyst effeciency - many things can set it off.

 

GD

[upDUHcreek]

If the coil pack is the problem, and I decide to fork out the cash for a new one, is this something I should buy only from the dealer, or can I get one from O'Reilly's?

 

Oops, I've been wanting to try the E3 plugs, so that's what I installed. I was hoping to get a little better milage out of it. So you guys think I should swap them out for NGKs? I've always been happy with the cheep NGKs I've used on other vehicles in the past, so I guess that's what Ill swap back to.

Edited August 20, 2011 by upDUHcreek

[GeneralDisorder]

As a general rule Subaru's don't like anything but NGK or Denso plugs. Sometimes people get away with it but you are generally better off getting the $2 NGK's than anything else.

 

Same goes for wires - LOTS of really poor quality wires out there and Subaru's use a very high voltage spark - it tends to expose insulation weaknesses easily. I have used lots of the NGK wires with good results and of course the ones from the dealer are also fine.

 

If your coil pack is bad - just pickup a used one from a local wrecking yard. They rarely fail so used is the best way to go. Aftermarket is not my first choice but if I were going to try one I think I would just do the cheap ebay one's I've seen - that way not much is lost if it gives up.

 

GD

[ocei77]

I have used E3 (still do) in my BL and BD.

Have not had any issues because of it.

But NGK is a no worry fix.

The only caveat is to replace them after 30K miles.

I was a little slow in doing my scheduled maintenace (got to @35K) and one of the triangular posts had completely burned up.

O.

Edited August 22, 2011 by ocei77

[idosubaru]

okay i saw you talking about misfiring and associated that with mis-fire codes...but you're not getting a misfire code, you're getting a P0420 code.

 

what's the condition of the exhaust?

 

how poorly is it missing/driving?

 

these engines are not forgiving with ignition components like plugs and wires unfortunately. i've seen brand new off the shelf wires cause misfires and nearly undrivable soobs.

[upDUHcreek]

It's no where near undrivable. I can't even feel the miss once I give it some gas, or if the car is moving. The only time I feel it is when the car's in gear, and I'm stopped with the brakes on. Then it will shake the car some. As soon as I let off the brakes, the shaking stops.

 

I was planning on fixing the misfire before dealing with the catalitic converter. It's starting to sound like I should at least get the CC checked out, so I can figure out if the p0420 problem is an O2 sensor, or a clogged CC. I'd like to get the misfire fixed first, it's possible the unburned fuel in the exaust is the cause of the problem here, and anything I replace will just be ruined again if the miss isn't fixed.

 

Hey guys, thanks for all the help. This is my first Subaru, and I'm likely to need quite a bit of help. I have lived here long enough to find a great mechanic, but he doesn't do serious work on Subarus. In fact, the shop pretty much likes to steer clear of any serious repairs on any imports. They'll do minor stuff, but they send most people to the dealership when it comes to Soobies.

[GeneralDisorder]

I have lived here long enough to find a great mechanic, but he doesn't do serious work on Subarus. In fact, the shop pretty much likes to steer clear of any serious repairs on any imports. They'll do minor stuff, but they send most people to the dealership when it comes to Soobies.

 

Heh. Little do they know (obviously), that Subaru's are some of the simplest cars out there to work on. And "domestic's" can be some of the hardest.

 

Can't be too great of a shop if they aren't willing to learn and expand their operation. I find that people who think like that are of a completely different mind-set than what you truely want in a "mechanic" (and I don't even really like that term) - a car is a machine and machines all operated on the same principles. Yes I prefer Subaru's and I steer my customers to them but I can and do work on almost anything. I prefer the term "machinist" - as in someone who builds, repairs, and maintains machines and "is interested in the workings of machines" in general. Doesn't really matter if it's an automobile, a toaster, a compressor, or a milling machine...... it's all the same to me.

 

GD

[WoodsWagon]

It's no where near undrivable. I can't even feel the miss once I give it some gas, or if the car is moving. The only time I feel it is when the car's in gear, and I'm stopped with the brakes on. Then it will shake the car some. As soon as I let off the brakes, the shaking stops.

 

so I can figure out if the p0420 problem is an O2 sensor, or a clogged CC.

That may be normal actually. When idling in gear with the brakes on, a lot of subarus will vibrate the whole car. If you click it into neutral, the vibration goes away. The problem is actually the CV joints in the front axles. If they are worn, or if they are aftermarket axles, they end up hammering back and forth because they are held by the brakes on one end and being pulsed with power from the idleing engine at the other. It's a wierd phenomenon thats due to the low-stall torque converter that subaru uses. The low-stall torque converter is still hydraulicly coupled at idle, so it puts more of the engine power pulses into the transmission than a higher stall torque converter would. Those pulses go through the transmission and act on the front axles.

 

I know it sounds thoroughly crackpot, but that's the way it is. Replacing the axles with MWE ones or good subaru ones makes the problem go away.

 

The P0420 is probably 02 sensors. If not, there is a cheap trick to fool the rear O2 sensor into reading like the cat is working by using a drilled out spark plug anti-fouler to space it out of the exhaust stream. It's a federal crime to modify an emissions system, but $5 is a lot more affordable than $$$ for a new cat.

[upDUHcreek]

It's no where near undrivable. I can't even feel the miss once I give it some gas, or if the car is moving. The only time I feel it is when the car's in gear, and I'm stopped with the brakes on. Then it will shake the car some. As soon as I let off the brakes, the shaking stops.

 

Oops, I guess now you all find out why my DUH is in caps. That statment was not entirely true. I should have said, "under normal driving coditions" in there somewhere. I'm sorrry, but I tend to write posts that are too long. Then I tend to over edit them so they don't sound like a novel. I can also feel it shake when the car's in neutral, or park, and when idling in gear at very slow speed. Also, sometimes it runs smooth for the first second or two after I stop before it starts to shake.

 

I am getting less than 300 miles out of a 16 gallon tank, so something's got to be wrong here. I never had a problem getting the 18 MPG my Olds was EPA rated to get in city, but my Subaru isn't even getting that much. I was hoping to go to Texas this weekend, but I can't afford to take the trip with the MPG I'm getting right now. My biggest fear is that one of the head gaskets has failed. Is there a simple test I can do myself to determine if that's my problem? I'm to the point where not knowing what's wrong, is actually bugging me more than the car shaking, and almost worse than all the cash I'm spending keeping gas in the Subaru.

 

This all seems weird to me. I have a buddy Roger with a Forrester too. Mine seems to take off just like his. I give it just the tinyest little bit of gas, and it takes off like I'm in a race, even though I'm only giving it enough gas to get to about 2k rpms before the automatic tranny shifts into the next gear.

 

Please, if there is anything else anyone thinks might be the problem, and an easy way an idiot like myself could check to see if that's the problem please let me know ASAP. I've been stressing out a lot lately, and if I could get it fixed by this weekend, going to the race in Texas would really do my attitude a world of good.

 

Thanks

Charlie

 

General Disorder

That's one way to look at it, but I look at it this way. If they aren't 100% shure they can fix my car, then they won't waist my money to throw parts at it that might fix the problem just so they can make some cash. Only a truly wise man will admit when he's ignorant. These guys are friends of mine, and I would appriciate it if you would refrain from talking about them that way.

 

Thank you

Charlie

[GeneralDisorder]

I am getting less than 300 miles out of a 16 gallon tank, so something's got to be wrong here. I never had a problem getting the 18 MPG my Olds was EPA rated to get in city, but my Subaru isn't even getting that much. I was hoping to go to Texas this weekend, but I can't afford to take the trip with the MPG I'm getting right now. My biggest fear is that one of the head gaskets has failed. Is there a simple test I can do myself to determine if that's my problem?

 

HG's aren't your problem. They fail in one of two ways - neither of which would involve misfireing. Either they overheat after a short drive, or they leak coolant and oil on the ground externally.

 

This all seems weird to me. I have a buddy Roger with a Forrester too. Mine seems to take off just like his. I give it just the tinyest little bit of gas, and it takes off like I'm in a race, even though I'm only giving it enough gas to get to about 2k rpms before the automatic tranny shifts into the next gear.

 

That's typical of the automatic's used in '99. My '99 Forester does the same thing. It's the design of the torque converter.

 

Please, if there is anything else anyone thinks might be the problem, and an easy way an idiot like myself could check to see if that's the problem please let me know ASAP. I've been stressing out a lot lately, and if I could get it fixed by this weekend, going to the race in Texas would really do my attitude a world of good.

 

Have you changed the ignition components I mentioned yet?

 

General Disorder

That's one way to look at it, but I look at it this way. If they aren't 100% shure they can fix my car, then they won't waist my money to throw parts at it that might fix the problem just so they can make some cash. Only a truly wise man will admit when he's ignorant. These guys are friends of mine, and I would appriciate it if you would refrain from talking about them that way.

 

I meant no offense to them personally. I just think they are leaving a lot of money on the table by sending people away that have easily solved problems - often "imports" have the same problems as anything else..... Plugs, wires, cap+rotor does the same wonderful tune-up on a Honda or Nissan that it does on a Chevy. Your Subaru is really no different - checking the resistance of the coil pack, inspecting plugs and wires..... these tasks a very much the same as any domestic car.

 

I work the same way in my shop - often I find that people bring me things for which I do not own the proper diagnostic equipment. What I do for them is ask them to have the dealership diagnose the problem and reccomend a repair procedure - which I will then perform at greatly reduced cost. Thus they still get the benefit of the dealer without their high labor prices

 

GD

[unibrook]

If your car is hesitating under load (ie, acceleration) when the engine is warm, then I suggest you replace your front 02 sensor. My 2001 Forester seems to want a new one every 40k miles. It is pretty easily done yourself.

[upDUHcreek]

Sorry guys, I've been in a pretty bad mood here lately because of this, and it's not anyone here's fault. Every thing I try to do, somehow gets all fubard. At least the gas milage isn't nearly as bad as I thought. I ran a full tank down to the last little line above the empty line, and it only took 12 and a half gallons to fill it. I guess I shouldn't have paid so much attention to where the owner's manuel says it's a 16 gal tank. They must be hiding the last three gallons below the Empty line. That's fine with me, it could come in handy some day!

 

I havn't had the chance to swap to the NGK plugs and wires yet. I will do that soon. Everyone carries NGK plugs, but only one store in town has the wires in stock.

 

Once again I'd like to thank everyone here for all their help. I have no idea here, and I'd really be in trouble without your help. Thank you, Charlie.

[WoodsWagon]

Yeah, there's a bunch of gas below empty, at least another gallon below empty on the gauge to where the low fuel light comes on, and then another couple gallons before the pump starts sucking air.

 

I drove my dad's legacy 50 miles after the low fuel light came on and it still had enough gas to keep running. I was trying to run it out because it had a rust hole in the tank that I needed it empty to fix, so I was driving it around with a 2 gallon can of gas in the back for when it ran out.

 

Always calculate MPG based on gallons to full. Fill the tank, reset the odometer, and check it when you fill it again. It doesn't cost more to keep a tank between half and full than keeping a tank between empty and half.

 

Do a search for "vibrate gear" using the search this forum tool in the upper right of the window. and a bunch of threads will come up, including one from me asking about the same issue with my mom's Outback. I never bothered to do anything about it, and years later it's still going fine. If it annoys her at a long stoplight, she clicks it into neutral and the vibration disappears.

Edited August 24, 2011 by WoodsWagon

[upDUHcreek]

OK, I've got a new symptom. We've been having a drought here, and it rained early this morning for the first time since I purchased this car. The car didn't shake the least little bit when I drove it in the rain. It stopped raining a couple hours ago, and when I took it out again, it was shaking once again, but not as bad. Aparantly moisture in the air cures the problem?

 

I also have a vibration in the steering wheel, but I'm pretty shure it's not related to the vibration I'm feeling at idle. The vibration in the steering wheel was still there while it was raining. It actually feels like one of my tires is not quite round anymore. I'm starting to think I should drop down to the Subaru dealership to let them check it out. The problem is, I used to work for their service department, and I know these guys are crooks.

 

I've been pretty busy the last week, and havn't had time to deal with this yet, and when I do finally get the problem fixed, I'll be shure to let you guys know what it was.

[danbennett2u]

Get the tires balanced at a tire shop. No reason you need to go to a dealership for a tire issue, especially if you know they are crooks. Moisture causing misfiring really makes me suspect defective plug wires. I would buy some subaru OEM wires, I have never had trouble with these and my last set lasted over 100k miles before I had to replace them.

[upDUHcreek]

I don't think it's an out of ballance problem. I noticed some bumps on the side of one of the tires. I've seen this before on tires that wound up seperating and coming apart. I bought some cheep tires once, and 2 of the 4 tires had to be replaced when they started coming apart. Both of those tires had these bumps on the side of them before they started to come apart.

 

While I'm at it, can anyone reccomend an awsome tire? This is my daily driver, and it's still on 205/75/15s. I would like something with a long tread life, that still works well in the snow, and ocasionally mud. I'm not planning on taking it to the offroad vehicle park, but I might need to drive across a muddy cow pasture to get home from the fishing hole.

 

Ok, there are a couple other things I've been wondering. First, how can I tell if my Forester has the LSD in the rear?

Also, I think this mod will work on my Soobie because it's an automatic, but I havn't seen any feedback from people running this. Is this a bad idea for a daily driver?

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=50264

 

 

Where are my manners? Thanks for all the help guys, I can't believe I forgot to thank you guys for the help twice already today.

Edited September 4, 2011 by upDUHcreek
Found my manners

[johnceggleston]

Ok, there are a couple other things I've been wondering. First, how can I tell if my Forester has the LSD in the rear?

 

it all depends on the year. 95 - 99 none of the legos or forester came with LSD. staring in 00 the outback had an optional lsd and by 03 it was standard in the outback and i think the GT. i don't know about the foresters. but even if you do not have one , you can swap one in.

 

you can search for a legacy ''carrier'' 2003 at www.car-part.com. if your forester is 98 - 99, choose outback locking AT and it will give a selection. (put in your zip first and sort your search by distance.) the outbacks and the foresters generally have the same final drive ratios but be sure to double check.

 

 

Also, I think this mod will work on my Soobie because it's an automatic, but I havn't seen any feedback from people running this. Is this a bad idea for a daily driver?

http://www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum/showthread.php?t=50264

 

that mod is only dangerous if you leave it engaged while driving on pavement. it can cause excessive wear on the drive train.

Edited September 4, 2011 by johnceggleston

[upDUHcreek]

OK, I've got an update for you guys. I got new tires, and the vibration while driving is gone. I still have the vibration at idle, and after spending much time reading here, I think it might be a valve problem. I can hear a pop coming from the exaust like one of the exaust valves is not closing fully. I ran a bottle of Lucas tune up in a bottle through it, and for some reason that ended the p0420 code, and my check engine light is now out. The vibration is much better, it's still there sometimes, but sometimes it's not. Even when it shakes the car, it doesn't shake the car quite as bad as before. I'm running a tank with no additives, then I plan on buying another bottle of Lucas for the next tank. Hopefully that will clear up the rest of the junk on the valve seat.

 

If anyone has an idea for a different additive that might work better, I'm willing to try almost anything to avoid tearing into the engine.

 

At the tire shop I found out 3 of the tires were made in 2003, and one was aparantly the factory spare, it was made in 99. That's the tire that was looking like it might separate. I'm shure glad I didn't go on a roadtrip before I got new tires.

 

danbennett2u

Sorry for the confusion, I should have been more clear, but I wasn't taking it to the dealer for tires. I was thinking of taking it there for a general inspection to get an idea of what's wrong with it. Now, I'm starting to think I might have a good idea what the problem is, thanks to all the info on this wonderfull site. Thanks for helping.

 

Once again, thanks for all the help from everyone. That's not limited to only those of you replying to my thread. I've learned a lot from reading others' old posts with similar problems. Thank you all. Charlie.

[roostema4328]

If you think a valve is not sealing do a valve adjustment to it. they are adjustable on that engine. not very hard to do either. you may have a bad valve. if you did it would more than likely cause a misfire code for that cylinder. if that ever happens do a leakdown test on that cylinder.