giardinetta seconda generazione :)

[turboguzzi]

So here she is...

 

After the wiring harness of my 1st gen 92' SW went up in smoke after 7 years and 80K miles (140K total), found this 2nd gen with just 80K miles and bought it from one VERY carefull owner. PO gave me a 10 page long maintenenace log for the car and its just amazing the amount of stuff he did. clutch, timing belt, ALL THE SHOCKS, all some 15K ago. other goodies included were the original steel rims with new winter tires and the already installed tow hook.

 

still some stuff to sort out like the usual o-ring at the pump leak + one CV joint on the way out + paint retouch in three of the car corners and the dreaded dashboard bulbs.

 

looks like this one is a keeper, so looking now into fitting a liquid gas system which is a common mod in italy.

 

and BTW, just in case you were wondering, giardinetta is the italian term for station wagon

[jarl]

...magari la mia giardinetta fosse come la tua ma questa non é un "keeper". Non ancora

[rverdoold]

Buongiorno

Which propane systems are possible in Italy. I have a Landi LSI system from Landi (Luccio autogas). This is Vapour Sequential Injection system is similar to direct injection as gasoline or common-rail diesel.

I have it installed on a 1.6 impreza and have valves adjusted every 30k km. Have a 52 L tank and manage 9l/100km on mixed highway or even 8l/100km when driving carefully.

Edited October 1, 2011 by rverdoold

[Txakura]

very nice, very nice

[TheLoyale]

I like this!

[turboguzzi]

...magari la mia giardinetta fosse come la tua ma questa non é un "keeper". Non ancora

 

come mai parli italiano?

 

rverdoold

 

not sure its propane here.. the one i want is GPL, stands for liquid petroleum gas and you can fit a 50L tank instead of the spare wheel as the gas is compressed into liquid state. it costs here 1500 euro but with my mileage i can start saving after two years.

 

the other one here is metan gas but that requires a lot of space in the trunk but saves more money too.

[turboguzzi]

just checked... in the US its called "propane/liquefied petroleum gas (LPG)"

[rverdoold]

GPL, LPG it is all the same. The contents varies on the temperature 40/60, 50/50 or 60/40 mix of propane/butane. I was in Italy in August for holidays and had not problems whatsoever. I have the tank installed instead of the spare wheel and costed 1650 euro including re-registration and complete installation.

Problem in holland is the differences in road tax for gasoline, diesel or LPG. The latter is higher, after 38000 km I paid off the installation and all more KM are bonus and cheaper. Well that was 1 year for me so no problemo.

I know vialle and Landi have direct injection systems. The only thing you hear are the piezo injectors ticking at idle.

Are you planning to use Valve lubrication, like Tuneap? I know for lots of cars it is used but never seen it with any subaru. Our 2.5 outback (2005) also did not had the system and drove fine for 200k km (we sold it).

Did you had a subaru before on propane, I can send some images of the system.

 

Problem with methane or natural gas is that it can not be liquefied (well it can but not as easy) like LPG so you only get half the distance on the same tank size. Plus it is harder to get compared to LPG/GPL.

 

Ah, it was not me speaking Italian, I know the basics for holiday including; getting food, most important espresso and cappuccino and above all Gelato.

Edited October 2, 2011 by rverdoold

[turboguzzi]

the valve thing is interesting... and a bit scary too, but my EJ20 motor has self adjusting valves, so not an issue, hopefully.

 

I do half your mileage (have quite a few motorcycles to ride too ), so it will take me 2 years indeed to get my money back

 

my 1st gen didnt have lpg, but i know how the installation looks like. I will just go to this dealership i really trust and have it done by them. will ask him about the valves issue though

 

tnxs

 

TG

[rverdoold]

Subaru most likely does not have valve issues. However there are basically 3 adjustment systems: 1 = the HLAs as in the 1st gen, 2 = standard valve adjustment rings and 3 = adjustment shim/plates. As fas as I remember the # 3 is used in the turbo models and can not be adjusted, you will have to remove the cams to change the plates. But most likely you have a 2.0 with # 2 valve system.

The valve lubrication is for engines which were not designed to last or to run on LPG, e.g., the VW 1.4 FSI needs it but the old 1.6 not. Fiat has no problems because the LPG cars have different heads. On subaru I have seen it only on 1 turbo, but subaru NL says the turbo or the 6 cyl can not run on LPG, or at least should not.

Try to have the connector made in the bumper or properly. Mine (dutch system) was made in the side and started rusting after 2 years, so took it out and resprayed it properly.

[jarl]

TurboGuzzi: quattordici anni di scuola Italiana, purtroppo non all'Italia. Mi occorre parlarlo, peró, perche lo stó dimenticando. Adesso che la FIAT ha acquistato un pezzo della Chrysler aspetto che parlare Italiano serva a qualcosa

 

I'm not quite sure which engines were available on your side of the pond, but I think this side's later EJ25D (97~99, normally aspirated) had the valve lash adjusted with shims. Earlier engines had large HLAs, and moved to smaller HLAs later on (according to an Endwrench article the HLAs began around mid '80s).

[rverdoold]

I'm not quite sure which engines were available on your side of the pond, but I think this side's later EJ25D (97~99, normally aspirated) had the valve lash adjusted with shims. Earlier engines had large HLAs, and moved to smaller HLAs later on (according to an Endwrench article the HLAs began around mid '80s).

 

The 2.5D was only available in the normal outback 2.5 (we had outback 2.2 as well) but they are quite rare over here because they costed a lot.

Basically we had 1.6 and 1.8 (same engine, different pistons) the 2.0 and 2.2. The 2.5 is rare.

[jarl]

Sorry to single out the EJ25D. The relevant paragraph on one of Endwrench's articles reads:

 

"Subaru of America began using hydraulic lash adjusters (HLAs) in the mid-eighties on vehicles with 1.8L engines and eventually the system spread to all engines. The use of HLAs ended with the 1996 2.2L and 2.5L engines. Since

then, mostly bucket-style lifters have been used."

[rverdoold]

Could it be europe motors have different heads, because all I have seen here are HLA or screw adjustable valves. Only the turbo WRX has buckets.

[turboguzzi]

compimenti jarl! troppo bravo...

 

rverdoold, most installations i see here have the valve inside the little fuel door

 

will check though, thanks for the advice!

[turboguzzi]

fully loaded for a vintage racing weekend.... now you know why a legacy SW is my only choice

 

1983 Kawasaki GPZ750 in the back, two bikes for me and girlfriend to get around the paddock, that should do

 

TG

[jarl]

[rverdoold]

You got it converted already?

[turboguzzi]

not yet, waiting for racing season to be over so i can give the installer the car for the full week he needs.

 

it is going to be done by autoklaus.com near Lecco who is very experienced with these installations. it is going to be a http://www.romanoautogas.it system.

 

will update after its done....

[turboguzzi]

mine is an HLA, so luckily I dont have to adjust the valves will ask what are the possibilities regarding the valve installation

 

tnxs

TG

[rverdoold]

Lecco,, passed there last summer (went from Porlezza to Arco (Garda)).

HLA are very trouble free, so that is nice. I think those heads have hard valve seats. There was one 1.6 in Holland which drover over 460k km on propane (and i think the person only had the oil changed once in a while)

[rverdoold]

it is going to be done by autoklaus.com near Lecco who is very experienced with these installations. it is going to be a http://www.romanoautogas.it system.

 

Wow those people sell whole gas stations nice for at home.

[turboguzzi]

hi rver

 

if you can post a picture of where the valve is in your car, it could help

 

tnxs

[rverdoold]

Sorry for the late response I lost the thread. Which valve you mean the filling valve. In holland we have different system with a big build in bajonet valve. Will find a photo for you.

 

I also found this, sorry it is in dutch but it is a dyno (now racing just checking a older car) of a outback 2004 on LPG. They test the dyno both for gasoline and lpg. This should a direct injection propane as well.

Basics 2004 outback 2.5 with 260K KM, should have 165 HP and 226 NM. However, it peaks 145 HP on gasoline and 130 on LPG. But the torque on gasoline is 190 and on lpg 200 NM so it has more torque on LPG but less HP.

 

http://www.autoweek.nl/video/2613/op-rollenbank-subaru-outback

[robm]

I hate to disillusion you, but that engine makes less torque and power on LPG. Look closely at the graph. Power is torque x RPM, so if it makes less torque at a given RPM, it makes less power, too. The bumps in the LPG power graph are matched by the bumps in the lower torque graph.

 

Still, I would convert my Loyale to propane in a second if I could. As long as it was an injection system, not a vapour rig. (There is a limit to how much power I can do without!)

 

During conversion, is anything done to optimize the engine operation for the higher octane rating of the fuel? Timing, manifold heating (more or less with liquid injection?) etc.?