EA-82TT Engine Management Swap

[Steve W.]

Hi. Doug. I have to agree with eulogious, a few nay sayers doesn't make it a bad thread. I'm watching with much anticipation, & look forward to more pics. I agree, if you move it let us know. Hang in, S.

[Quidam]

Time to do an update and I still haven't done any actual work on it since the 1st. I've thought about it of course and I'll get back to wrenching later this month. I didn't start a build thread on this but here it is. I didn't start one because no matter what I tell you I wanna do and when I'm going to do it may not happen. And I typed a time line but in fact, that was some more wanna do stuff. In fact it will happen when it happens, if it happens. After all, I don't know the future. But I do have all these parts.

 

What this particular motor is: Used parts I've collected over time, sorting out the good from the bad, parts cars bought fairly inexpensivly. NOS bought the same way, gaskets, rings $32.00, pistons $50.00, valves, an uncracked ebay head bare for $60.00, $100.00 and shipping for the intake manifold, those type of purchases. I haven't bought a single part from the Subaru dealers. Rock Auto, eBay, board members, that sort of thing.

 

What I have in it is time, doing something I enjoy. Oh yea, of course things like carbide bits for porting, tootsie rools, sandpaper, sealants, paint, all the usual stuff. And some shop fees. And it all does add up, of course. But this isn't a mega bucks deal.

 

What I decided to do was on this motor, use both VF turbos that I have, and it's probably not what you're thinking. I'm going to leave the distributor in where it is. I bought ACCEL Race Wires, 25ohm per ft. resistance. I actually got a good deal (60% off store price) on ebay for a set for the 429 C.I. Ford motor wires, and can make two Subaru sets from them. Sleeves, silicone, and fat, angled boots which will help me out with clearance issues on 1 and 4.

 

 

If you take the part of the exhaust header/up pipe and turbo seen in the picture, unbolt it from the passenger side and bolt it onto the drivers side head, you have the turbo mounted to the drivers side, on the front of the motor. I assure you it fits and will work that way:). So yea, one turbo for each side per 2 cylinders. I didn't take any pictures before I tooki it apart but the only thing in the way is that flange that sticks out for bolting...something on to it. I can cut that off, as it interferes with the drivers side cam sprocket. Oh, seeing how this manifold was constructed, If I were to fabricate another, I'd use oval tubing, and I've sourced that actually if I want it. Extruded, elbows too. Give better clearance on the two cylinders and you could go bigger I.D.

 

As you know, the water and oil can be easily had from the drivers side head, same as the passenger side.

 

The lash adjusters, I have .040 clearance between the cam lobe and rocker. All that needs to be done is remove the check ball in the bottom of the HLA, leaving the spring in the very bottom of them, as it spring loads the LA against the rocker arm. What I'm not sure about is how much clearance to run with solids and a turbo, but I expect it needs to be generous. So say a nominal .030 thick, X 14mm diameter drop in shim inside the lash adjuster will do. Here's how it's done on a Ford 2300 four cylinder for reference.

 

I won't know if the HLA thing works out until I run it of course, but one of the reasons I want to do it is to restrict the amount of oil up into the cam case. I also plan (wanna) to put an oil pressure fitting on the cam case or head so I can see the actual oil pressure at that point, as I'll see how thin a synthetic I can run and still have decent pressure to the cams. The one on the oil pump gives a reading on the discharge pressure but tells me nothing about how much is leaking past the bearings.

 

So things to do with this setup, wide band O2 after the two down pipes are connected. A single MAF? and bigger throttle body from somewhere. Single or dual intercooler? I've got two new fuel pumps, not positive they'll work out tho. We'll see, but I may fire it up on high test pump gas, tho I really want to run E 85. I've been reading the E 85 ARMY thread over at NASIOC and this being the "beginning" of the mid west, it's available here. Corn grows all around me in the summer.

 

Doug

Edited February 6, 2012 by Quidam

[Steve W.]

Hi. Doug, glad to see your back. I'm likin' your theory on the lash adjusters. Are you planning to use a stock ECU? If so you could save a little space with a newer disty, without the vac. advance. Keep up the good work. Any thing we can do to help? Hang in there, S.

[Caboobaroo]

Wow Doug, I can't wait until this thing roars to life. I've been watching the thread the whole time and it makes me excited.

 

For those questions you asked, here's my professional opinion.

 

You will probably want to run dual MAFs or see if you can build a single blow through setup. This I would think would help cut down on piping for the intake as a whole. If space allows, run two smaller intercoolers like an Audi twin turbo, down in front of the front tires behind the bumper is where they placed theirs.

 

Next time I get ahold of an EA82 cam case, I will see if there might be something that can be done to help strengthen them up.

[Quidam]

Hi. Doug, glad to see your back. I'm likin' your theory on the lash adjusters. Are you planning to use a stock ECU? If so you could save a little space with a newer disty, without the vac. advance. Keep up the good work. Any thing we can do to help? Hang in there, S.

 

Hey Steve,

 

Heh, that makes the lash adjuster a spring loaded pivot, and me the lash adjuster. Just don't start calling me Lifter:).

 

Yea, engine management is still up in the air. This is the B engine and low cost is still a driver. I do still have the optical and magnetic systems... complete parts cars if I do need any of it on this one. But I've been distracted from anything automotive of late and right now, It's still pretty fuzzy in that department.

 

However, I do have this on hand as well.

ACCEL 49300 Ignition Box, 300+, Digital, Capacitive Discharge, Universal

 

 

• 
  
• CD Voltage Output to Coil500
  
• CircuitryDigital
  
• Coil IncludedNo
  
• Current Draw0.8-1.0 amps per 1,000 rpm
  
• Data AcquisitionNo
  
• Height (in)2.000 in.
  
• Ignition Box ColorBlack
  
• Ignition Box OutputCapacitive discharge
  
• Length (in)4.250 in.
  
• Maximum Operating Voltage18
  
• Minimum Operating Voltage8
  
• QuantitySold individually.
  
• Rev LimiterYes
  
• Spark Output (millijoules)125
  
• Timing RetardNone
  
• WarrantyOne-year warranty
  
• Width (in)3.125 in.
  

And this:

Accel 49375 375 + Ignition Amp Box

 

The 375+ features a unique design that incorporates a compact control unit that can be mounted out of sight inside the car with a remote display/ input unit close at hand for real-time programming or monitioring. The 375+ Accessory control harness lugs directly into the 300+ box, allowing the custom software and dual RISC microprocessors to fully interface with each other.

 

 

Features:

Two stages of sequential rev limiting control from 1,000 to 12,700 RPM, in 100 RPM increments

Window RPM switch from 1,000 to 12,700 RPM, 100 RPM increments

Fixed nitrous oxide or high-speed timing retard from 0.1 to 15.0 degrees in 0.1-degree increments

Start timing retard from 0.1 to 15.0 degrees in 0.1-degree increments, beginning at 100 RPM, dialing out at 500 RPM

Proportional boost timing retard from 0.1 to 4.0 degrees per PSI of boost in 0.1-degree increments (Requires the use of a MAP sensor)

Selectable to read either 2 or 3 BAR MAP Sensor signals

Tachometer display mode with 10 RPM resolutions and moving point-averaging software for clear resolution

Real time manifold pressure display mode displays vacuum in inches of Hg and boost in PSI (Requires the use of a MAP sensor)

.Ignition Coil - E-Core - Super Coil - 48000V - Black / YellowProduct # 140009 For high-performance use with both breakerless electronic and ACCEL CD type ignition systems. Heavy gauge windings and E-core design maximize energy and voltage output.

And for a while now I've been reading "Proven Power Bragging" over on NASIOC, it's been very informative. See, I have worked professionally (In a shop and got paid for it) as a mechanic for about 7 years, then I got out of it. And I've never built a turbo car, so yea, those things I'll definately have some questions and would like to hear thoughts, ideas, and opinions. But once I start turning wrenches again is when I can really concentrate on it all.

 

Doug

Edited February 8, 2012 by Quidam

[Quidam]

Wow Doug, I can't wait until this thing roars to life. I've been watching the thread the whole time and it makes me excited.

 

For those questions you asked, here's my professional opinion.

 

You will probably want to run dual MAFs or see if you can build a single blow through setup. This I would think would help cut down on piping for the intake as a whole. If space allows, run two smaller intercoolers like an Audi twin turbo, down in front of the front tires behind the bumper is where they placed theirs.

 

Next time I get ahold of an EA82 cam case, I will see if there might be something that can be done to help strengthen them up.

 

Hey Russ,

 

Can I call you Russ? Well, I'll appreciate any input when I go to sort this out. Dual MAF I don't know much about, and yea the piping amount will be a consideration, for sure.

 

The single blow through MAF, I read tuners that aren't very fond of it because of if you have air leaks before the MAF, things can go south without you knowing beforehand.

 

The cam cases, the gasket/o ring is on a Subaru for the acoustics/sound transmission. I was thinking of making it structural, eliminating the gasket.

 

And I've got some other theoretical stuff to do with them as well, but anyone is welcome to jump in with thoughts. Hell, I don't know everything, and I might learn something.

 

Doug

[Caboobaroo]

Sure sounds good to me Doug.

 

The crazy ideas I've had for your lifter situation. If you could gut the hydraulic lifters and make them solid, then chuck them into a metal lathe, turn some metal off the base, you could run a shim under lifter setup fairly easy.

 

Only problem with making the cam box part of the head is then you can't get into the lifters to service them. Also came up with an idea to make a steel girder that cross braces the box, and along the edges, which has holes that line up with the bolt to hold the box to the head.

 

Just a few random thoughts I came up with:banana:

[Caboobaroo]

I think the best way to even run this engine would be a Mega Squirt setup with an EDIS add on. They can be fairly easy to tune yourself and you might be able to find different maps to download to run on your car, like a "factory" setting.

 

This makes it completely tunable and gets rid of that pesky distributor so more room for that second turbo:brow:

[Quidam]

Sure sounds good to me Doug.

 

The crazy ideas I've had for your lifter situation. If you could gut the hydraulic lifters and make them solid, then chuck them into a metal lathe, turn some metal off the base, you could run a shim under lifter setup fairly easy.

 

Oh see, if I take the check ball out of the HLA it collapses. I could just throw a shim under it now and run it that way. Yea, lol, I can think of a few ways to do these. When I take that check ball out, and the bottom spring, then measure the clearance between the valve rocker and the cam lobe while it's on the base circle, It's .040" clearance. That's all the lash that's adjusted by the HLA.

 

Only problem with making the cam box part of the head is then you can't get into the lifters to service them. Also came up with an idea to make a steel girder that cross braces the box, and along the edges, which has holes that line up with the bolt to hold the box to the head.

 

Just a few random thoughts I came up with:banana:

 

Oh, let me clear that up. I'm still going to O ring the cam box where it interfaces the head. Just remove the valve cover gasket, that O ring, possibly fill the channel where it sits solid with epoxy, then put it back on without the gasket. Mabie dowl pin it, weld it, I'm not sure, but I plan to do something like that with it. Yea, the girder, when I get back to it, something like that possibly, except I was planning on using aircraft aluminum.

 

Keep those thoughts comming, I'll consider anything.

 

Doug

[Quidam]

I think the best way to even run this engine would be a Mega Squirt setup with an EDIS add on. They can be fairly easy to tune yourself and you might be able to find different maps to download to run on your car, like a "factory" setting.

 

This makes it completely tunable and gets rid of that pesky distributor so more room for that second turbo:brow:

 

Megaspuirt, I was looking around at standalone EFI today. On the next motor I plan to run the EDIS.

 

I can use the ACCEL system I have with a crank trigger wheel, or the magnetic pickup, in the distributor. If I bolt on the wheel, all the distributor does is distribute the spark. I looked at this system good today, put it together, labeled wiring, and it will work good and is very tuneable.

 

I'm going to mount the second turbo to the front of the motor this go around.

 

What I'll need, is the standalone EFI that incorporates the knock sensor, and preferabally adjustable fueling to each cylinder.

 

I've been crusing ebay for used cheap. I didn't make it to the Megasquirt site today, but that's on my mind if they have a EFI that fits.

 

Then again, this ACCEL stuf I got at steep discount because their newer stuff is comming out. I think it's possible to score a good used unit. We'll see. Relatively inexpensive is still the driver.

 

Doug

[Quidam]

This ACCEL system only works with a distributor.

 

What I'll need is an inexpensive crank trigger and wheel. I think the MSD kit is like three hundred bucks. Shouldn't be too hard to find one. I'll need to buy a 2 Bar MAP sensor for this. ACCEL is a litter higher and really, about any of them will work with this.

 

With the 300+ crank triggerd timing is fixed, but with the 375+ added, I have a start retard.

 

The hand heald input device I can just use that for a digital tach, vacuum/boost gauge leaving it hooked up.

 

I can select the boost timing retard value, reason for the MAP, up to 4* per PSI of boost.

 

Rev limiters all I want, activate nitrous, Stage RPM limiter, fixed or hight speed retard value, signal retard fore any gear....on and on.

 

Doug

[Quidam]

Being this is the "B" motor, I'll make compromises with what I actually want. I'm giving up being able to control the timing to each individual cylinder with this ACCEL system.

 

If I have to give up the ability to control the fueling to each individual cylinder due to cost, I'll do it.

 

What I want is a knock sensor on each individual cylinder.

 

Wide band is a little pricey, but I don't want to give that up.

 

What I'll end up doing though, is probably tuning it for the # 3 cylinder to stay healthy. It's got the intake ports that are different and is farthest away from the water pump. I was shocked to tear down a relatively low mileage motor to find the #3 cylinder wall with a small split in it. The ports have differences, run at different temps...and some other stuff.

 

But I'm not going to have what I want with the B motor, and I can't get the most hp/torque out of it that's possible. This will be a daily driver/learning experience.

 

With the proper high octane fuel, I'm confident that with individual cylinder knock sensor, individualized fueling and spark timing, keeping it out of knock/detonation, too lean or too rich, so on and so forth, I can literally push the motor to structural failure...(from the amount of power being made alone, whereever that is) The only way to find out where that point is, is to remove those typical reasons for failure. Then, it's simply a matter of how good a "Tooner" you are. I believe the rods would be the first weak link, and I can't justify putting even the "B" motor back together without new rod bolts, so that will be done. I've turned this block 7200 rpm under load many times, so I have the confidence there it's basically solid.

 

I'm not sure if the valve springs give up at that point or it's an issue with the HLA's.

 

Anyway, if I don't respond here in the next few days or whatever, I'll be where I don't have internet access.

 

Doug

Edited February 9, 2012 by Quidam

[Steve W.]

I,m with Caboobaroo, the Mega squirt is an amazing devise, but for our common funding problems. The stage III (about $400. in kit form) can control spark & fuel to each cyl.individually, + two of three stages of boost control & retard. Can handle up to 16 injectors, & I think multiple knock sensors. I believe you could do away with the disty, with your crank trigger & use coil-on paks or maybe a coil set up from a 2.2 or 2.5 Suby. Don't quote me, haven't been to the Mega site in a while. It sounds to me like you have a pretty good handle on where your headed, & we're just waitin' for the next installment. We fully understand the time restraints issue, so keep pluggin. S.

[Quidam]

I'm going to have to think about this:).

 

And sell some more stuff:)

 

Doug

Edited February 10, 2012 by Quidam

[rpholz]

Doug,

what's the word on this?

ive since started my own turbo project posted on the XT forums.

[Quidam]

I'll take a look at that build of yours. Something you don't see every day. Stock pipe just bolted to the drivers side head.

 

 

This one is still a pile of parts and I do some work on it when I can. Not going to happen this year, if anything over the winter. Bought a 304 stainless J pipe to fit the 2nd turbo.

 

Genuine Subaru are the best headgaskets for this, as they're the thinnist I've found. Fel Pro are "fat" and Beck/Arnley are a little less so. I'll probably deck the block again and take the max off. Less quench/detonation, higher compression ratio. I've taken .006 off the deck and still have .120" piston to valve, so with no high lift cams in sight I'm thinking at least another .010 off the deck.

 

Car might rust away in the meantime:brow:

 

Doug

[rpholz]

well to be perfectly honest not much has happened yet, had to get a TON of projects out of the way first, but now I have the car and most of the parts are on their way. Should come together fairly quick. basically just a TD04 w/spyder intake, timecerts w/headbolts at 75lbs, Halltech stand alone, 4wd conversion via XT6 trans, oh did I mention it's all going in a DL:clap:

 

link to thread:http://subaruxt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12732

[Steve W.]

Hey Doug, glad to see your back bangin' on that on that engine. I ran across my bookmark for your thread, and thot' I'd better catch up. I'm in the same boat, hopin' to get some shop time now that the cold is settin' in. Keep plugin'. Steve. ---- Oh, I ran over to rpholz's other site, seems there's some EA 82 hostility over there as well. I'm gonna' head back over, and cheer him on. Luck, S.

[Quidam]

Still above ground. I've got the money to finish it. Got a Tig welder, stick welder and ox/aceteline torch.

 

All I need is time, fuel management, Total seal gapless piston rings, tires, two wheels, and some other bits. The time thing is a problem for the summer time frame but I'll be doing stuff when I get a chance. Car has been tarped over the winter, metal roofing under the whole car has kept the moisture and weeds at bay.

 

Oh, the heads need about 8 hours yet on the ports and I'll need to do some welding on them, I went large, ah, head games that people play

[WoodsWagon]

I wouldn't worry to much about the valve train as far as rpm goes. All the EA82's I've had were pretty consistent about floating the valves at 81-8200 rpms and nothing bad happened when they were held there. The solid lifters are a good idea because you could make your lash predictable rather than depending on the whims of the oil system.

[Steve W.]

   Hey Doug, glad to see your back.  I certainly understand the - more projects than time issue, and trust me it doesn't get any better as we get older. Any way, still waitin' for the next installment.  S.

[Quidam]

 Car is up on stands.

 

Change of plans...installing an 140,000 known good engine, Pepe, little mule. Have low mile XT6 flywheel and car will be put together this time with 5 speed with diff lock, 3.7 rear lsd, manual steering rack. Have all new brake stuff, hood pins...I removed all the door bumper molding. I need to get some pics...

 

I need front struts, have XT6 hubs. Know if struts from an 2002 Imp will bolt on?

 

Doug

Edited July 5, 2013 by Quidam

[Steve W.]

  Hey Doug.  Good to hear from you.  Say, I've been runnin' late model Legacy front struts and hubs on my 88 GL10 wagon for several years now.  I started with XT6 stuff, but didn't want to be stuck with the front e-brake set up.  I had to move the pivot point for the lower control arm on the sub frame, out about 5/8" (IIRC) to keep from and loading the half shafts. Then you need to use shafts from early Imp front whl. dr. car.  25 inner and 27 outer spline count, again IIRC. Then i used rear calipers from early 90s, 200-240 SX Nissan, with the XT6 backing plates and rotors. I used Legy O/B struts because of higher spring perches, for more lift. Don't see any reason that Imp. front assemblies wouldn't work the same.  Pretty sure XT6 hubs and late model struts aren't compatible.  Keep us posted. Steve.

[Caboobaroo]

Doug, the struts will work and you might also want to use the Impreza knuckles too. You can make the Impreza struts fit the XT6 knuckles but the XT6 knuckle is fatter then the EJ knuckle where the struts slides over it. I have stretched a set of WRX struts onto a set of XT6 knuckles but you'll enjoy how well it turns with the EJ knuckles.

 

Anyways, back on topic....

 

I've been planning on doing the MS2 v.3.0 on my XT6. It is compatible with the factory distributor but you can also step up to use the Ford EDIS-4 system, comes on most 4 cylinder Fords in the 90's. I'm planning on using the EDIS-6 and have been finding the needed parts for under $100. Then get the correct wheel mounted onto the crank pulley and wire it in! I've found most of the needed parts and even replacement parts from www.diyautotune.com. You can then use the stock distributor and optical pickup for a cam position and the guys at DIYautotune also make special wheels to give the correct signal to the MS box.

Been doing a ton of research on the conversion for my car and the EA82 isn't much different.

[Quidam]

I recieved these parts yesterday.

 

 

UPS delivered the XT6 flywheel this morning...and it's a flexplate instead, so it goes back. Grabbed another GL flywheel to take to the machine shop to be ground to XT6 specs. Hood pins go back, I ordered red. Say, do you have an opinion on aircraft aluminum lug nuts?

 

 

Rear XT6 conversion, I basically have all the parts on hand and it will probably be done first. Steeve, the front hand brake...linelock:) I was wondering whether to fool with the hillholder for that but I've never messed with or used them much. I've just unhooked a few.

 

I'll be going with the XT6 hubs, rotors, brakes for now. I'll shave the mount for the Imp strut. I get that I'll need the XT6 outer tie rods. Wondering if it's a bolt on with the manual rack? I don't have XT6 strut rods and wondering if I should get some. I'm thinking they are larger than GL rods. I'm thinking I'll want some neg camber and a little more caster with this set up. Feed back?

 

I have the XT6 lower control arms, front and rear sway bars. As this is going to be a street car, no use for a dedicated race car.  New drivers side headlight installed with the early side marker lights the other day, set of headlights had the blue Sylvania bulbs so that's what's in it now.

 

I can buy these Tanatube struts for two hundred, what do you think of them? I'm inclined to think it;s not such a bad deal. Feed back?

 

Edited July 18, 2013 by Quidam