man on the moon Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 (edited) I will put my current frustration and question at the top here, and the story/details below. If you don't want to do a lot of reading, everything I am curious about is in the first two paragraphs, the details follow below the dashed-line: So I have decided that my Loyale is out to f******* with my mind in every way possible. I can do all the optional repairs, and preventive repairs I want, and work on them as long or short as I wish. I can research and read and get everything perfect and the car running well...and she will choose something I didn't even come close to touching to stump me with. Current case in point: I was driving home from a transmission swap (yes, driving! I was pretty damn proud ) the car died and won't do more than cough now and again when I crank it now. I suspect it may be the MAF sensor (more details and story follow)...if so, I am uncertain as to how to go about replacing the harness side terminal??? Or just what the deal is? It threw me Ohms that were well outside the specs Chilton's recommends. Can I hotwire this sensor somehow to drive it to work for a few days and get to the junkyard/parts store? I work six days a week so it may be a bit before I can get a proper part. Why would it start and run fine, then suddenly fail catastrophically while driving and work only sporadically after that? Ok, story/detail time if you want or need them: -------------------------------------------------------------------- On the way home from putting in the new d/r and axles, the car sputtered, coughed, and died. Gas was low but not empty. Cranked. Injector wasn't firing. Put gas in. Injector fired for a couple seconds, but might have had too much water, put the air intake back on. We tried cranking for a while to clear the line and it coughed a few times but always cut out immediately. So I had it towed home thinking I may have air or water in the line, and would just wait until it settled out. Come today. Put Gumout in the tank and walked back and forth to the gas station enough to get just shy of half a tank by the gauge. Nothing. Cranked and cranked. Nothing. Cranked. Engine caught once but died. Cranked some more, but nothing came of it. At that time I checked the timing belts, I checked the marks (three dashes/cam dots). If they are off it's by half a tooth or less, and should at least TRY to start. So I cranked again, this time watching the throttle body, and the injector isn't even firing! So I turned to trusty USMB search function. Whatsmore, I followed it's advice and checked my various sensors: ECT sensor: the sensor reads 3-4k Ohms (Chiltons says it should be 3k). MAF sensor: the book says "BR terminal" to ground should read under 10 ohms. I am not sure which terminal is which (they are labeled A/B/C/D) so I measured all four on the harness side: ---'A' is empty ---'B' reads 18 ohms ---'C' reads 2 ohms or so ---'D' gives no reading, not sure why. The book says on an 87-89 SPFI the terminal in question is 'B', which would mean I have an MAF problem if the two are teh same...but I have no idea. Other notes of interest: I can get the injector to fire if I hotwire it, but it won't fire when we crank the engine (and yes, it is plugged in). Or if it is firing, it's sporadic enough to do no good. I cleaned out the ECT and MAF sensors (MAF was a little dirty, but it cleaned up with just a squirt of spray). Nothing... The battery is low enough it doesn't want to start with starter fluid, but I can fix that. Can the MAF really keep the car from starting? And if so, can I hotwire it somehow to get it running long enough to get to the junkyard/back and forth to work for a few days? Edited November 11, 2011 by man on the moon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man on the moon Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 I should hasten to add that the computer is currently giving me no codes, just the quick six 'all clear'. At the McDs the other day (the one I rolled into when it died) it flashed me 14 which has to do with injector output, but I have not been able to get it to do that again since we put gas in the tank. It did flash 21 (water temp sensor) when I unplugged the sensor to test/clean it, but that cleared when I plugged it back in. Other than that only six quick 'all clear's. Also: upon closer inspection of the Chilton's and a solid amount of time comparing diagrams, it would appear the MAF on my Loyale is at least the same size/shape/number of pins as the 87-89 models. There is no diagram specific to the Loyale, and 'SA' is listed in the diagrams as being for MPFI, which I do not have. If the MAF sensors are, in fact, identical, the terminals are: A--emtpy B--R (Battery +) C--B (Ground) D--W (Signal) which would mean my sensor is well within spec, terminal C reading only 2 ohms, and spec being "fewer than 10". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 (edited) I just had the same problem of the injector not firing..in my case it was wire related going into the ecu..in general the FI needs to get a signal from the disy for it to inject..easiest way to find out is replace the disy hopefully with a spare one..hope it works..check for spark at the disy to see if the coil works..maybe the ignitor is shot..seeing spark from the disy does not tell if the optical unit inside is working correctly..seeing spark from the disy will also tell if the rotor is still fastened properly..good luck... Edited October 23, 2011 by Petersubaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man on the moon Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 The rotor moves (I checked this way back) and I get spark/a hell of a shock when I pull a plug. I snagged a passerby for a jump tonight and the injector started firing when we cranked it, but still not enough to get the motor running. Maybe: 1--my battery has cranked enough times to be just low enough to not let things work quite right? Injector wasn't firing earlier, or not too much anyway. May have been given too little voltage? 2--injector is going out? 3--need more time for the water to come out of the fuel? I went back out after I walked the dog tonight and undid the fuel lines at the filter, both lines (in and out) at the injector, and loosened the gas cap. I dumped some of that alcohol/water remover stuff in earlier and a couple gallons of gas on top of it. It's been almost 48 hours since I parked it, though... Everything I've tested so far is in spec. How does one test a fuel injector besides doing a mickey mouse hotwire job to see if it turns on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 maybe sticking your nose within the throttle and smelling for fuel after you have tried to fire it up..would that work..I don't know, never done it with a FI..however it will work if it was a carb.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 The rotor moves (I checked this way back) and I get spark/a hell of a shock when I pull a plug. I snagged a passerby for a jump tonight and the injector started firing when we cranked it, but still not enough to get the motor running. Maybe: 1--my battery has cranked enough times to be just low enough to not let things work quite right? Injector wasn't firing earlier, or not too much anyway. May have been given too little voltage? 2--injector is going out? 3--need more time for the water to come out of the fuel? I went back out after I walked the dog tonight and undid the fuel lines at the filter, both lines (in and out) at the injector, and loosened the gas cap. I dumped some of that alcohol/water remover stuff in earlier and a couple gallons of gas on top of it. It's been almost 48 hours since I parked it, though... Everything I've tested so far is in spec. How does one test a fuel injector besides doing a mickey mouse hotwire job to see if it turns on? I believe getting a hell of a shock (spark ) will tell you nothing about the disy sending the signal for the FI to fire.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man on the moon Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 (edited) Wasn't trying to imply that, sorry--just that I'm getting spark to the plugs. Whether it's communicating with the FI or not I don't know. I'm going to laugh at myself (after a huge palm-print leaving facepalm) if it's the fuel filter. I don't think it is--gas comes out of it--albeit not as much as sometimes does. Still enough I should at least get a cough or two and a few seconds of running, though...it's not quite two years old, but I guess anything is possible. Edited October 23, 2011 by man on the moon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Wasn't trying to imply that, sorry--just that I'm getting spark to the plugs. Whether it's communicating with the FI or not I don't know. for me it was easier to replace the disy then chase down electrical readings..but in my case the disy was not the problem.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man on the moon Posted October 23, 2011 Author Share Posted October 23, 2011 What happened, then? If it wasn't the distributor... I put in a 'new' disty just a few weeks ago, btw. August, maybe? Or July? One I had from another Loyale I got rid of some time ago (but kept some parts). The disty that was in the car was having trouble and causing stalling and stuff. Now a new rotor and cap, 'good' disty, and more importantly--no error codes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 What happened, then? If it wasn't the distributor... I put in a 'new' disty just a few weeks ago, btw. August, maybe? Or July? One I had from another Loyale I got rid of some time ago (but kept some parts). The disty that was in the car was having trouble and causing stalling and stuff. Now a new rotor and cap, 'good' disty, and more importantly--no error codes... ..wireing problem to the ecu at the large connector located on top of the motor was a problem..also before that water in the gas had to recycle itself thru the system..apparently this car had sat for some time with a near empty tank..after about 10 starting attempts (perhaps a lot more) and some new fuel with some B12 added, it fired up and has been doing fine since ..I knew something wasn't right when there was no smell of fuel on the plugs after some starting attempts.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man on the moon Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 @Peter: How long did it take for the water to clear the system, so to speak? After yesterday I went down in the evening and got someone to try and jump start me, and the injector fired just fine, though still no start. Perhaps it's a water issue I've compounded by running the battery low enough to make things not fire fully? I pulled every gas connection in the motor: at the fuel filter, both in AND out at the injector...guess that's it, actually. I loosened the gas cap, too, so the lines can drain (I blew through them) back to the tank without fighting whatever pressure may remain in the system. Water remover in the tank. Today (Sunday) ordered a new fuel filter at the parts store, and grabbed a battery charger so I don't have to flag down a passerby for a jump every time I'm ready to test something. Guess I'll just keep trying things until either A--it works, or B--I've tried everything and decided it's the injector or whatever part that failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 @Peter: How long did it take for the water to clear the system, so to speak? After yesterday I went down in the evening and got someone to try and jump start me, and the injector fired just fine, though still no start. Perhaps it's a water issue I've compounded by running the battery low enough to make things not fire fully? I pulled every gas connection in the motor: at the fuel filter, both in AND out at the injector...guess that's it, actually. I loosened the gas cap, too, so the lines can drain (I blew through them) back to the tank without fighting whatever pressure may remain in the system. Water remover in the tank. Today (Sunday) ordered a new fuel filter at the parts store, and grabbed a battery charger so I don't have to flag down a passerby for a jump every time I'm ready to test something. Guess I'll just keep trying things until either A--it works, or B--I've tried everything and decided it's the injector or whatever part that failed. ..I knew there was a lot of water in the gas tank because I could see it pour/drip out of the exhaust, far more then usual,and the car had a slight miss.. I also knew this was not a headgasket issue because I filled the cylinders with over 125 psi and thus no leaks..my battery tester was always hooked up..very little fuel in the tank to begin with so filling with fresh fuel was easy...occasionally it would start and run for a few seconds but would run very erratic and then shut off..most of the attempted starts just turned the motor over, nothing, ...and as time went on, the starts sounded like it was ready to the fire-up, but a no go..this lasted for day with many attempted starts..a spare starter I have, so it did not matter if I burned this one.. maybe you have something else going on..did you smell the plug for fuel after attempting the start..my plugs had no smell of fuel and when looking into the throttle body after someone tried starting it with me keeping the throttle closed, I could see fluid but the fuel smell was very, very weak in odour..like I said, maybe you have something else going on..maybe fuel pressure..mine was OK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man on the moon Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 My sense of smell for gasoline and similar odors is very weak to non-existant. That was due to my being stupid and leaving gas/oil smelly clothes in my laundry once while I slept. Realized what had happened after 1--I woke up high as a kite and put the stuff outside, and 2--a dog sprayed my skunk and I had no clue whatsoever (he even came in the house) until someone else commented on the fact to me. There is a light smell of gas but I have no idea how strong it is as both weak and strong concentrations are identical to me. It's been...yesterday was day three, but may (?) have been compounded by a weak battery. Didn't check the tail pipe, but there could be quite a lot of water. If a new filter doesn't clear it up tomorrow (day five) I guess I get to drain the tank? Joy. Any other ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 My sense of smell for gasoline and similar odors is very weak to non-existant. That was due to my being stupid and leaving gas/oil smelly clothes in my laundry once while I slept. Realized what had happened after 1--I woke up high as a kite and put the stuff outside, and 2--a dog sprayed my skunk and I had no clue whatsoever (he even came in the house) until someone else commented on the fact to me. There is a light smell of gas but I have no idea how strong it is as both weak and strong concentrations are identical to me. It's been...yesterday was day three, but may (?) have been compounded by a weak battery. Didn't check the tail pipe, but there could be quite a lot of water. If a new filter doesn't clear it up tomorrow (day five) I guess I get to drain the tank? Joy. Any other ideas? ..fuel filter replacement would be a good place to start..fuel pressure and volume check would go a long way in diagnosing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man on the moon Posted October 24, 2011 Author Share Posted October 24, 2011 Sigh...another tool to purchase. Pretty soon I'm going to need a proper garage and tool box/bench. Right now she's parked at the auxillary lot for the local grocery store/apartments/mini-business district in the next block (I have street parking). My tools are in a canvas bag in the car, but quickly outgrowing that as I acquire more and more. Plastic and gauges are in a smaller container but quite nearby. I've also acquired jack stands, a pipe, a few hammers, I forget what else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted October 24, 2011 Share Posted October 24, 2011 (edited) Sigh...another tool to purchase. Pretty soon I'm going to need a proper garage and tool box/bench. Right now she's parked at the auxillary lot for the local grocery store/apartments/mini-business district in the next block (I have street parking). My tools are in a canvas bag in the car, but quickly outgrowing that as I acquire more and more. Plastic and gauges are in a smaller container but quite nearby. I've also acquired jack stands, a pipe, a few hammers, I forget what else. ..I have this one since the store is 2 mi from me http://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-injection-pump-tester-92699.html ..surprisingly this gauge was "spot on" at 21psi..hook up the silver attachment to the "in going" fuel line..teflon tape also needed.. Edited October 24, 2011 by Petersubaru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man on the moon Posted October 30, 2011 Author Share Posted October 30, 2011 So I have an update, but not a solution. I learned today the motor will turn over even if the key is not in 'run' (screwdriver on the starter), but the injector, etc, will not fire...I wonder if I made the same mistake before??? Either way, it fired every time I tried it today after I set the key to 'run'. I undid the fuel-in line at the injector and drew half a gallon of fuel just from the fuel pump running. It looks good, but that is not final, could still be weak. Cleaned up the spark plugs, they were pretty fouled. Now they aren't. Still can't start the car. So I had a choice, I could drain the tank into a variety of milk-jugs, buckets, etc and risk them blowing up while I tried to figure out wtf to do with them...or I could go to a mechanic. I had her towed . We'll find out next week what the deal is when the mechanic calls me, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petersubaru Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 So I have an update, but not a solution. I learned today the motor will turn over even if the key is not in 'run' (screwdriver on the starter), but the injector, etc, will not fire...I wonder if I made the same mistake before??? Either way, it fired every time I tried it today after I set the key to 'run'. I undid the fuel-in line at the injector and drew half a gallon of fuel just from the fuel pump running. It looks good, but that is not final, could still be weak. Cleaned up the spark plugs, they were pretty fouled. Now they aren't. Still can't start the car. So I had a choice, I could drain the tank into a variety of milk-jugs, buckets, etc and risk them blowing up while I tried to figure out wtf to do with them...or I could go to a mechanic. I had her towed . We'll find out next week what the deal is when the mechanic calls me, I guess. ... the plugs would get real dark if you are trying to start without fireing up,. so fuel probably getting to them... could also be something like the ignition switch gone bad...let me know what happens.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 If you haven't charged the battery up using a battery charger I suggest you do that. If you haven't tried starting the engine with the MAF disconnected try that and see if it will run then. If it doesn't run then spray some stater fluid into the intake ans see if the engine gets going then. If it does run for a bit then the injector circuit needs to be checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man on the moon Posted November 1, 2011 Author Share Posted November 1, 2011 I did charge the battery between attempts. I did not try it with the MAF undone. It's at a garage now, I had to move it or risk getting nasty phone calls . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man on the moon Posted November 5, 2011 Author Share Posted November 5, 2011 I think I need to make this two parts, so bear with me. 1. After a week of not hearing from the mechanic, I walked over there to talk to him. He seemed pretty upset with me for not telling him what all I had done to the car. I didn't bother to say the list wouldn't fit on a full page, much less the note card I had written my note/phone number on. He told me the gas is good, and that it is a timing issue. Apparently my rotor was loose and not spinning properly, the cap was burned out, and at least one wire was shot. I saw the cap, couldn't tell with the wire (couldn't see inside the rubber bit). The inside of the cap looked ok, but one of the posts was definitely worthless. I asked him to just get it running, it's going to be about $250 for him to check the timing, the distributor, new wires, new rotor, new cap. I could do it myself for less but I'm not in the mood to mess with towing it back to my place, finding a place on the street where the truck can drop it, etc. 2. Why did I have trouble with the injector? The best I can gather, either I cranked it with the key off ? Or with the battery too low? Some combination? Guess I will have to wait to find out (and I hope it's a long time before I have that trouble again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man on the moon Posted November 11, 2011 Author Share Posted November 11, 2011 Brought her home from the mechanic today. It turns out I just needed a new disty cap, rotor, and he replaced the wires too. I had this done back in June when I asked shop to check my crank angle sensor (on the disty in the EA82), but I guess that shop didn't do it. I ended up dropping a new disty in myself, but swapped over the cap and rotor without a thought--they seemed clean enough so I put them on...guess the guy didn't actually do anything, maybe? Besides wipe them down/spray some cleaner on them???? Anyway, car is home now. I'll take it as a compliment that the mechanic only commented that my lifters are a bit noisy--didn't say anything about the shiny new heads, the new clutch, the new transmission, or the new axles. Just said it drove well when he took it out and that I need to think about a new oil pump in the near future. As for the injector, there must have been another problem--battery just a bit too low, or a connector in the harness needed cleaning (I cleaned out all the connectors before I sent her to the garage), or I forgot the key when I was trying to start from the starter...or it will die on me AGAIN and I'll discover the problem was intermittent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Nice to hear it is working again. I think you will be good to go now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
man on the moon Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 Nice to hear it is working again. I think you will be good to go now. I hope so! I should clarify: the shop I took her to in June was one I'd never been to before, but the one I went to this time is one that has done a couple other minor things for me, and I've seen him work on other cars--he's pretty good, or at least trustworthy. I suspect the other shop was just trying to get me back when their 'fix' failed, or something. Anyway, after I drive it for a few days and adjust the timing, idle, etc I think I will be a very happy owner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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