thinking about selling my sub and getting another - what do you think?

[ydono]

So, I have a 2001 Subaru Outback with 198,000 miles on it. I have had the head gasket replaced once and it sorta seems like we may be having issues again. Although, I've taken it to so many mechanics and they are split 50/50 on the issue.

 

I travel a long distance in the snow and am thinking I need to get what I can for this Subaru and buy a new car or less used car. My initial intention was to get a Subaru. However, I have a friend who just bought one and he has had many major problems and he says it won't even go up his drive in the snow (which amazed me because mine goes through very high snow while going uphill with no problems at all)!

 

So, two questions:

1 - I seem to remember someone telling me that 2001 was a year in which Subaru typically had issues with head gaskets and that it continued until .... and I don't remember the year. I thought it was 2005. Anyone know?

 

2 - I've also been hearing from certain mechanics that Subaru isn't as good as it use to be - both mechanically and with handling snow - which is what my friend's experience was. What is everyone's opinion on that?

 

3 - So, if I were to trade in my really old Subaru for a less used or new one - what year would be a good one to look for.

 

OK, that was 3 questions! thanks everyone

[bheinen74]

we need a emoticon for opening a can and worms coming out...

 

you just opened a can of worms.

1. even the 05+ leak headgasket, but it is usually just oil and external leak.

2. agree. I experienced that instability. You will need snow tires and that may not even fix it.

3. I would just fix your headgaskets, again and use the newest iteration of OEM from Subaru gasket. They have had about 4 different styles since the original engine, so if you get the latest iteration, should be okay again for another 150k.

[MilesFox]

maybe go for a well preserveved first gen legacy, or 95-96 legacy. OR a up to 99 impreza.

 

you would be in an older car, but possibly less milles, not too shabby, and paid for with cash(cheap). You would not have the same problems associated with the later subarus.

 

many will have opinions that these were the best subarus made so far.

[Caboobaroo]

I work on Subarus for a living and yes they do have headgasket issues.Its because Subaru uses a single layer steel coated headgasket and the coating fails over time. I recently did a set on an '07 Impreza 2.5i that had 52k miles on it. The reason why its easy to tell when the headgasket starts to leak oil and then coolant on a Subaru is because the gaskets are vertical so they drip right off the heads, whereas other vehicles with different engine designs will drip onto the exhaust to be burned off or be hidden away for awhile until its too late.

 

Have the headgaskets redone with a multilayer steel headgasket (or MLS gasket) instead of the OEM single layer headgaskets. They typically hold up better then the single layer gaskets especially under more load and heat. Then you should be good to go for awhile longer. I have customers come in with over 300k miles on their '00-'04 Outback.

[heartless]

you could always get one with the H6 - no major HG problems there!!

 

someone gave some pretty good advice (IMHO) in your post in the Welcome area - if you havent seen it yet...

[idosubaru]

"sort of seems like we may have".....too much ambiguity to make a decision. start another thread, "are my headgaskets bad" or "it's leaking coolant" and start the process of properly diagnosing, we can help with that as well.

 

was the first HG repair done by Subaru? was the Subaru coolant conditioner added - it's required for this motor? if it's leaking coolant add two bottles of this conditioner right now - it has been known to stop leaking headgaskets. the stuff is only $1.57 from Subaru.

 

Subaru HG issues have been mitigated over the years but not really solved until really late....maybe 2010's or something?

 

what caboob said in your other post - that's the headgasket i use and the last three digits of the part number are 610 - i use it for all EJ25's and have to specifically ask for it or they'll give you the thinner one he talks about.

 

subaru's, even newer ones, do great in the snow. your friend has poor tires or something wrong with the car. tires are the difference. put studded Nokian Happ's on his car and even if it's FWD it'll make it through the snow just fine. it is most definitely not the car, it's all dependent on his personality at this point.

 

it's unhelpful and confusing to cross post - post the same thing in multiple threads.

[Caboobaroo]

Yes but the H6s have other issues as well, like leaking valvecover gaskets, leaking timing chain covers, timing chain noises, timing chain tensioner problems, serpentine belt tensioner problems, among other things.

 

 

Subaru fixed their headgasket design when they came out with the FB engine in 2010 in the Forester and 2011 in everything else IIRC.

[GeneralDisorder]

I don't feel that Subaru's have become any less reliable. Sure you may have to replace some HG's now and then - but it's just a gasket. The main mechanical components are actually more reliable since 2000 than ever before.

 

I *would* say that Subaru's as a whole are not as reliable as say - the average Toyota FWD car. Camry's, old Corolla's, etc. It's a trade off though - when something on those cars breaks they are a pain to work on. Subaru's aren't. And with Subaru you get a lot more car for the same money. AWD has more parts - more parts will always lead to more maintenance and repair. But still - Subaru has an excellent track record of building very long-lasting cars. Most will go well over 300k even if you need a couple HG jobs to get there. It's just part of the cost of owning a vehicle with their capability.

 

The reason for the poor snow performance is likely tires and weight. The newer Subaru's are larger and heavier than ever before and good tires are very important. The AWD systems are about the same as they have always been. If the traction isn't good enough then look into getting a LSD for the rear.

 

GD

[ydono]

you could always get one with the H6 - no major HG problems there!!

 

someone gave some pretty good advice (IMHO) in your post in the Welcome area - if you havent seen it yet...

 

For some reason that post is missing...... bummer.

[ydono]

"sort of seems like we may have".....too much ambiguity to make a decision. start another thread, "are my headgaskets bad" or "it's leaking coolant" and start the process of properly diagnosing, we can help with that as well.

 

was the first HG repair done by Subaru? was the Subaru coolant conditioner added - it's required for this motor? if it's leaking coolant add two bottles of this conditioner right now - it has been known to stop leaking headgaskets. the stuff is only $1.57 from Subaru.

 

Subaru HG issues have been mitigated over the years but not really solved until really late....maybe 2010's or something?

 

what caboob said in your other post - that's the headgasket i use and the last three digits of the part number are 610 - i use it for all EJ25's and have to specifically ask for it or they'll give you the thinner one he talks about.

 

subaru's, even newer ones, do great in the snow. your friend has poor tires or something wrong with the car. tires are the difference. put studded Nokian Happ's on his car and even if it's FWD it'll make it through the snow just fine. it is most definitely not the car, it's all dependent on his personality at this point.

 

it's unhelpful and confusing to cross post - post the same thing in multiple threads.

 

unhelpful to be so negative

[ydono]

So, we just got back from the mechanic and we find out that we also have a catalytic converter problem (including a gas line leak). He says it will never pass the emissions tests and would need to be fixed. The leak in the HG is very small and he doesn't think that is a problem. But, now we have the catalytic convert problem - $2000 repair....

 

think we'll sell if we can find a good used. So, we go back to that point - what would be a good year to look for (with low mileage)????? Lets focus on that point. I know some of mentioned years .... but I'm a bit confused. Sounds like 2011 has solved some issues? but then there are also recommendations of older cars too....

[cal_look_zero]

It's really dependent on what you want and how important aesthetics/new car goodies are.

 

The phase 1 EJ22 (90-97 iirc) is considered to be the best engine Subaru ever produced. Minimal HG concerns, reliable, cheap to maintain, etc. However you're in a car 14 or more years old unless you swap into a newer chassis. If it's been maintained, you're golden. As long as you're not concerned with new shiny, you're golden.

 

On the other hand if you think a cat job and fuel line repair is $2000, I have some oceanfront property in Idaho for sale. Your mechanic is scalping you on that quote.

 

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/_Car-Truck-Parts-Accessories__?_sacat=6030&_dmpt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&_m2home=1&Make=Subaru&Model=Outback&_myi=2001&_rkw=catalytic

 

You can buy a cat for $250 shipped that bolts right in.

 

If you're not the type of person who wants to yank and engine and do it yourself, find a well respected and recommended Subi mechanic, and have them do the HGs correctly. Heads should be checked and machined flat if need be, multi layer HGs, coolant conditioner... They need to be experienced and thorough. Any shop can do HGs, a good shop will do them right. There's a lot of truth to getting 150k out of a good HG job on the 2.5s; even more truth in <30k on a bad HG job.

Edited November 5, 2011 by cal_look_zero

[GeneralDisorder]

You don't need to spend $2000 to fix that coverter issue. There's tricks to taking care of that for about $10 or so :-p.

 

HG's weeping externally are rarely a critical issue that need attention immediately - put in a bottle of the Subaru "conditioner" and deal with the oil weepage. It's not typically enough to impact the oil level between changes.

 

If what you *want* to hear is that you should go buy a new car then stop asking for permission. At the end of the day though - someone is going to take your 2001 - bought as-is - and get another 200k cheap miles out of just by doing a little homework/legwork to fix the converter "problem" for cheap and throw some glorified stop-leak in the radiator.

 

I'm dead serious - a friend and fellow board member just picked up a 2001 Legacy Outback sedan with 470k on it. Finally developed a rod knock. Original engine and tranny (auto). With a few repairs here and there a Subaru of your vintage with good maintenance isn't going to just up and die. If it needs HG's then do them. If it needs a spark-non-fouler on the O2 to shut off the CEL then do it.

 

If you want to be just another member of our throw-away society then go right ahead. But nothing you have said so far points to any great concern or high cost of continued ownership - you just haven't explored all the repair/maintenance options.

 

GD

Edited November 5, 2011 by GeneralDisorder

[cal_look_zero]

You don't need to spend $2000 to fix that coverter issue. There's tricks to taking care of that for about $10 or so :-p.

 

HG's weeping externally are rarely a critical issue that need attention immediately - put in a bottle of the Subaru "conditioner" and deal with the oil weepage. It's not typically enough to impact the oil level between changes.

 

If what you *want* to hear is that you should go buy a new car then stop asking for permission. At the end of the day though - someone is going to take your 2001 - bought as-is - and get another 200k cheap miles out of just by doing a little homework/legwork to fix the converter "problem" for cheap and throw some glorified stop-leak in the radiator.

 

I'm dead serious - a friend and fellow board member just picked up a 2001 Legacy Outback sedan with 470k on it. Finally developed a rod knock. Original engine and tranny (auto). With a few repairs here and there a Subaru of your vintage with good maintenance isn't going to just up and die. If it needs HG's then do them. If it needs a spark-non-fouler on the O2 to shut off the CEL then do it.

 

If you want to be just another member of our throw-away society then go right ahead. But nothing you have said so far points to any great concern or high cost of continued ownership - you just haven't explored all the repair/maintenance options.

 

GD

 

Our throw away society is how I have less than $1000 into 2 running Subi wagons!

[bheinen74]

my local rebuilder place has a theft recover 2004 outback H6 automatic wagon, silver, with 24k miles. it has a clean title, they are asking 10k but, you know what, that is a deal of a deal. It has a few dents in the front fenders, silver, leather interior, loaded, again clean title previous theft recover. that h6 and mileage, hard to beat. I saw the car.

[Meeky Moose]

my previous 99' outback was awesome in the snow, and it was automatic..

 

my previous 2001 outback was a big POS in the snow. abs would kick in and the car wouldn't stop at all in snow pack, and turning, pfft.. forget it, it liked to push itself straight in the corners in snow pack. its the only subaru i have ever actually hated to drive.. ohh it was an 01' limited, 5-speed with 43k on it with these problems.. it was sold in favor of an older subaru..

 

i have to agree that the new subaru's are not of the same quality as the older ones..

[3Pin]

Don't agrgee with the last post. Over the last bunch of years personally and for work,I have had an xt coupe, 2 -95 wagons, 2- 96 outback wagons, 1 98 forester, 2000 Outback wagon, and I own a 2002 LL Bean now. The 2000 and the 02 are the best ride and are awesome in the snow. Just regular all season radials on all of them. I haven't driven the new ones yet in the snow, but I can vouch for the 2000 and 2002 which we have still. The 2000 has 227K on it and the 02 has 110K.

 

I rescue (HG) the 96-99 wagons all of the time and they drive great in the snow, but not as smooth as the 00 and 02.

 

My 2 cents

 

:drunk:

[ydono]

Went out this weekend and got a 2009 Outback with 13,000 miles on it for a good price. When we test drove it we realized how bad the steering had gotten on the 2002 subaru. The 2009 feels like how we remembered the new 2002 - outstanding handling and steering.

 

After reading the posts I think we caused some of the HG problems by not going to a Subaru dealer, and not putting in the additive.

 

We test drove some toyotas (RAV4 and Vesta) and they felt like trucks compared to the Outback. In the end, we wanted a vehicle that handled like a car but had cargo space - and Subaru had that to offer. With Toyata, we found that we had to go all the way up to a Highlander to get a vehicle that handled like a car but had cargo (hatchback space).