doromb Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Hi folks! My 95 Legacy Outback (EJ22 engine @ 182k miles) has started leaking oil badly. I smelled hot oil on a 200mi road trip, and when I got home I found oil all over the bottom of the engine, with a few drops of bright green coolant. The dipstick is dry after that trip (it was at level when I left), but I had no performance or overheating issues. The oil seems to be concentrated on the passenger side of the engine toward the rear. My coolant reservoir appears clean, no visible gunk, but when I removed the radiator cap (cold engine) coolant immediately overflowed. What are my next steps for diagnosing and fixing this problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bstone Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Get some engine degreaser and liberally spray down the engine. You need to clean it all up. Let it dry for a day. Come back the next day, turn on the engine and see where the leak is coming from. Report back your findings and bring me cookies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 i second what bstone suggested, that said, I am going to put $10 on it being the seperator plate on the back of the motor leaking. Any takers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doromb Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Hey, I'll take a separator plate over a head gasket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doromb Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 So, I cleaned up the bottom of the engine, and it looked like the leak was coming from around the timing belt case. I need to get this figured out sooner rather than later, so I took the car in to a local independent. The shop found crankcase gases in the coolant, indicating an internal head gasket leak. I authorized a 2hr diagnostic, and they accessed the front of the engine. The front cam seal appears to be the main cause of the leak. The shop recommends replacing the head gasket, timing belt, water pump, and front seals (crank & cam). Costs: 17hr Labor: $1455 Timing belt, tensioner, timing pulleys, water pump: $620 Clean & machine heads, replace headsets & bolts: $690 Crankshaft & camshaft seals: $25 Total: ~ $2800, with a 12mo/12,000mi warranty Is this a reasonable cost for these repairs? Alternatively, would new seals + Subaru coolant conditioner get me another 15,000 miles or so? I love this car, but I've also got a known dead duty C solenoid (transfer clutch solenoid) and maybe a dying viscous coupler. Is it time to move on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bstone Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 An external head gasket leak? I didn't know the 95s did this. I strongly suggest a second and third opinion from other shops. If it is an external leak then you can go to your local dealer and get a bottle of Subaru Coolant Conditioner and add it to the coolant when the car is cold. The price quote is very high for a head gaskt job. For that price you could get a fully rebuilt engine installed. I suggest the ej22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doromb Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 OK, I'll be calling around for more opinions. The shop said this was an internal HG leak. I guess the problem goes like this: my camshaft seal suddenly failed somehow and started leaking oil. Meanwhile, a (pre-existing?) leak in my head gasket is pressurizing the coolant system and forcing coolant out somewhere (Maybe a loose hose?). How much harm would an internal HG leak cause? Will the Subaru coolant conditioner fix an internal leak? The EJ22 in there now has always run great-- even on the most recent drive I had no performance problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbennett2u Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 If you are leaking and pressurizing the radiator at the same time it seems like you have both an internal and an external rupture. It sounds severe enough that conditioner alone probably wont do it, you are mixing coolant and oil and the oil's functionality is compromised, so it will do more damage if the conditiooner doesnt stop the leak. at 180k miles its more cost effective to throw a used engine in there I would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 i concur with the used engine idea. head gasket failure is not a common occurance on the EJ22 - yes, it does happen, but not often as compared to the EJ25. find a decent used engine - $750 or so, throw a timing kit at it - one that includes the seals, waterpump, idlers and belts, reseal the rear seperator plate & possibly the cam covers & oil pan, and pop that puppy in there... parts should cost less than $225-250 for all of this, depending on what part of the country you are in. oh, and flush the radiator & heater hoses/core out before hooking up to the "new" used motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doromb Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 This is getting beyond my skill level. I guess it's time to let this one go. If anyone wants to put an an engine in and get another 100k, I'm posting the car to the classifieds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 I am thinking many of the responses to you questions are getting way ahead of themselves. Take a deep breath, and resist getting panicky, with considerations about selling the car, or having expensive work done to fix what is being described as a head gasket question. Determine this......... Has your engine been heating? Has the temp gauge been reading anything above normal? If not, I wouldn't worry much about the head gasket, and I wouldn't be alarmed about what a mechanic saying that there is gas vapor in your cooling system, which may not be true. The overheating is what happens when you have an internal leak head gasket leak. It causes the engine to over heat. However, your 2.2 motor does not have a reputation of blowing head gaskets, and I don't read anything in your original post about any over heating problem. For what is being quoted by your mechanic, I am thinking he is wanting to do a lot of work, that is going to pay off very profitably to him. I get the feeling he is more interested in making big money, rather then simply fixing what needs to be fixed on your car. Unfortunately, too many shops have this greedy attitude. If it were me, I would have only the front oil seal, water pump, and timing belt replaced, probably not by that mechanic, and drive on. I am betting there are many good miles left in the engine in your car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doromb Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 Thanks for the encouragement Rooster. I want to believe this car is fixable, and performance on my last drive was fine--no overheating at all. Before I took the car in, I opened the radiator cap with the engine cold and about an ounce of coolant overflowed. That seems to point toward pressure getting into the radiator somehow. The shop says they used a chemical test where they collect vapor from the open radiator with the car running and test that for the presence of engine gases. Do you know anything about that kind of test? Does it give false positives often? What would be the next step to rule out an HG problem? I know it's unlikely with this engine, but I want to be sure it's OK before I sink the time and money into fixing the front seals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted November 23, 2011 Share Posted November 23, 2011 Thanks for the encouragement Rooster. I want to believe this car is fixable, and performance on my last drive was fine--no overheating at all. Before I took the car in, I opened the radiator cap with the engine cold and about an ounce of coolant overflowed. That seems to point toward pressure getting into the radiator somehow. The shop says they used a chemical test where they collect vapor from the open radiator with the car running and test that for the presence of engine gases. Do you know anything about that kind of test? Does it give false positives often? What would be the next step to rule out an HG problem? I know it's unlikely with this engine, but I want to be sure it's OK before I sink the time and money into fixing the front seals. The test I remember from years back was to us something like litmus paper that was dipped into some of the coolant removed from the radiator. A chemical reaction changed litmus paper color, I suppose when detected hydrocarbons in the antifreeze. That test was done on a VW that I owned, and shop said test showed I had a leaking head gasket. I decided not to repair, as motor ran good, so I went on to drive the car another 10+ years, and 100K+ more miles with no head gasket problem. So much for needing a head gasket. I don't know anything about the radiator vapor test you described, but I bet it is not much different from the litmus paper test. There is much written on this forum about the 2.5 motor, (not the 2.2 motor you have) blowing head gaskets with exhaust gas going into the cooling system. The most telling test on that motor is motor over heating, and bubbles coming out of the hose from inside the radiator over fill tank. The bubbles are actually the exhaust gas escaping from the cooling system. I personally saw that on my 2.5 motor, so I know what that looks like. Reminded me of fish aquarium air pump that pumps air bubbles into the aquarium. When this is happening, the engine water temperature and temp gauge goes to hot. The least expensive fix is to just replace the front oil seal only, since that is where you are loosing oil, and really why you took your car to a shop in the first place. That seal is located right behind the front engine cover, where you could see oil leaking from. I have never personally replaced the oil seal, so I don't know if it is simple job or what it would cost. Others on this forum could answer that question, who would know. If you want to know, ask that question in a separate new post here. When I have had a shop replace my timing belt, I ask that the water pump and front oil seal get replace at the same time. This I do, because my mechanic says since he is working in that area, it is labor saving to have all that work done at once. Your coolant leak could be from a bad radiator cap, or loose hose who knows. Question....was your car motor absolutely stone cold when you removed rad cap, and some coolant squirted out under pressure? If not stone cold, then the slight squirting out would be normal. Hope my advise helps..........Larry (Rooster2) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doromb Posted November 23, 2011 Author Share Posted November 23, 2011 When I opened the radiator and had minor overflow, the car had been sitting for 3 days. I've looked for bubbles in the overflow after driving 5 miles and seen none. Does the car need to be above normal operating temperature for that to happen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike104 Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 When I opened the radiator and had minor overflow, the car had been sitting for 3 days. I've looked for bubbles in the overflow after driving 5 miles and seen none. Does the car need to be above normal operating temperature for that to happen? General test (at least on the 2.5L) is to check the overflow tank with the car running at operating temp. Bubbles in the overflow tank then generally indicate the probability of bad HGs. I would try a new rad cap and let us know if it over heats. Here is a visual guide of how to change the front crankshaft seal as an FYI (photo 10): http://beergarage.com/SubyOPump.aspx The timing belt has to be removed to do this job and the oil leak may have damaged the belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 When I opened the radiator and had minor overflow, the car had been sitting for 3 days. I've looked for bubbles in the overflow after driving 5 miles and seen none. Does the car need to be above normal operating temperature for that to happen? If head gasket is bad, it will blow bubbles into the over flow tank at normal operating temperature, or after the engine is started from cold, and once it begins to warms up, the bubbles will start. I would put on a new radiator cap. Maybe the old cap is preventing coolant from re-entering the over flow tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scoobyru Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 hey guys, i have a 2000 subaru outback, and i noticed the other day that it was leaking coolant, i need some advice on what i should do, it seems as if the coolant is soming from multiple ares, by the oil filter on the front part of the engine (just under the the pullies for the belts, right by the oil pan, and it seems like the gasket on the passenger side of the engine is leaking. need some help. please and thank you, Anthony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 If the car isnt overheating, and you dont see bubbles in the overflow tank, then you probably dont have a headgasket issue. changing the oil seals isnt all that hard, just need to make sure they go in straight. as has been mentioned, the timing belt does need to come off to do this, and if it was leaking that badly, i would just go ahead and do a full timing belt service on it - just for peice of mind. there are some good timing kits available on ebay for between 100-150 bucks that include the belt, idler pulleys, water pump and the front oil seals. somebody post a name of reputable sellers, please? get the kit, a new thermostat, and a new lower radiator hose (oil saturation will cause them to get mushy & leak - had that problem with mine) spend an afternoon, and it will more than likely be good for another 70-100K before needing to be touched again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
95legwagon Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 hey guys, i have a 2000 subaru outback, and i noticed the other day that it was leaking coolant, i need some advice on what i should do, it seems as if the coolant is soming from multiple ares, by the oil filter on the front part of the engine (just under the the pullies for the belts, right by the oil pan, and it seems like the gasket on the passenger side of the engine is leaking. need some help. please and thank you, Anthony welcome to usmb you need to post this in your own thread so you dont thread jack. hope you get it figured out and happy motorin! -jarrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 there are some good timing kits available on ebay for between 100-150 bucks that include the belt, idler pulleys, water pump and the front oil seals. somebody post a name of reputable sellers, please? get the kit, a new thermostat, and a new lower radiator hose (oil saturation will cause them to get mushy & leak - I had good luck with theimportexperts' kit--belt, idlers & waterpump. But go to a dealer or online and get Subaru OEM thermostat and cam & crank seals. Maybe the radiator hoses too. Or contact ShawnW here on the board, I think he can put together a reasonably priced kit for you. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doromb Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 I'm going to do the repair! I drove the car about 10 miles today to get it up to operating temperature. The only new symptom was a whistle/hiss under hard accelerations at ~4000 rpm. Any thoughts on what that might be? As soon as I pulled back into my driveway, I popped the hood and looked for bubbles in my coolant reservoir. No bubbles! I'm going to disregard the chemical test and hope for another 50,000+ miles. Here's what I plan to replace: Timing belt & idler pulleys (Not the tensioner, it was replaced 40k ago) Front Camshaft seal (left & right, correct?) Crankshaft seal Waterpump? Oil pump? (or just reseal?) Thermostat Lower radiator hose Any suggestions for other things to fix while I'm in there? A friend suggested torquing down the bolts on the head gasket cover to fix the HG leak. Would that be worth trying? Thanks for all the help so far! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doromb Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Oh yeah, I'm also planning on flushing the radiator (with a garden hose) and adding new coolant with a bottle of Subaru conditioner. Do I need OEM coolant with that or can I stick to the green stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doromb Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Ignore this post... needed 1 more to get PM privileges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster2 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Oh yeah, I'm also planning on flushing the radiator (with a garden hose) and adding new coolant with a bottle of Subaru conditioner. Do I need OEM coolant with that or can I stick to the green stuff? I don't think adding Subaru radiator conditioner is necessary. The product is made for the 2001-2004 or 05 models that can develop an external HG leak. Your 1995 motor won't leak coolant like these years do. I use ordinary green antifreeze and distilled water. The 50/50 mix antifreeze is convenient to use, though a bit more expensive. All your planned work sounds reasonable. Glad to hear you have no bubbles in the over flow tank. Keep us posted on your results after work is completed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olnick Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Here's what I plan to replace:Timing belt & idler pulleys (Not the tensioner, it was replaced 40k ago) Front Camshaft seal (left & right, correct?) Crankshaft seal Waterpump? Oil pump? (or just reseal?) Thermostat Lower radiator hose A friend suggested torquing down the bolts on the head gasket cover to fix the HG leak. Would that be worth trying? Your list looks good. You're right, one camshaft seal on each side--they're the same, left or right. Just be sure you get the "new ones" (they're black!) Just reseal the existing oil pump. While you have it off, loctite and tighten the screws on the backing plate. Get a new o-ring for it and seal it to the block with Permatex Ultra-Grey. Try a search on here for details. Personally I wouldn't touch the head bolts--too much potential for really messing things up! You can use "normal" green stuff antifreeze. As for the Subaru cooling system conditioner, I don't think it will do you any good. But maybe someone else has a different opinion. Hope it fixes your problems. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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