dkckekmk Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 We have a 1996 Legacy L wagon with about 150,000 miles. Generally, it's been a great car. We've generally been very good about basic maintenance -for example, regular oil changes at around 3,500 miles, and it runs (or, I should say, ran) very well. Over the years we've had to replace things here and there, as you'd expect - for example, alternator in 2004. Over the past couple of years, though, more things have needed replacement - for example, cam seals and various belts in June 2009, the radiator in March 2010, steering boot in September 2010, tires in November 2010, battery in August 2011, an axle in August 2011, a throttle switch in September 2011, and the starter in October 2011. We weren't happy that things seemed to be going wrong so often, but we kept telling ourselves each time that maybe this would be the last thing, and none of them individually were killers financially. Plus, it was our only car. Now, though, it needs a new water pump, which my mechanic (I can't do it myself) thinks will be around a $700 job. We've gone ahead and bought another car, but we're trying to decide if we should repair the Legacy and keep it around as a semi-retired second car for use in a couple of years by my kids (now age 15 and 17). On one hand, if the car has life left in it, it would be perfect for them for short hauls to school, etc. and we wouldn't be able to get a replacement for $700 if we found ourselves needing a second car. On the other hand, we have no way of knowing if something else will just go wrong if we repair the water pump. My mechanic thinks we should not do the repair and instead just donate it or sell it for scrap or parts. Part of his rationale is that in his experience 150,000 miles is all you can reasonably expect from a Subaru. What do you think we should do? Thanks for any advice you can provide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairtax4me Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I'm sure there is a member here on the board who can put a water pump in it for far less than $700. It is fairly in depth because it requires removal of the timing belt to replace, but it's still only an hour and a half, maybe two hour job for an experienced mechanic. Really shouldn't be any more than $250 - 300, including the cost of the new water pump. If the car is free of rust, tires in good shape, brakes OK, exhaust system isn't falling part, I'd definitely put the water pump in it (especially if you can get it done cheap). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal_look_zero Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Firstly, welcome to USMB. Secondly, show this to your "mechanic"... I would fix it, but then again I could do it myself for $100 in about 4 hours. If it's in good shape, you could get it fixed by someone who's not a scam artist, and sell it to recoup some costs incurred. According to AutoMD, any reputable shop should only charge about $300 including parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red92 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 What is the circumstance that you now need a water pump? If the pump failed and the car was overheated, then the mechanic's "don't fix it" advice may be due to the risk of having more hidden damage elsewhere. Beyond that, I would absolutely fix it. You are in pretty much the ideal situation, actually. * You have another car for regular use, so you don't have to fix this one ASAP * You've had this car a substantial amount of time and kept up on maintenance (ie: the rest of the car is in good shape) * You will be needing another used car (or two) in the near future for the kids Is there a reason why you say you can't do the water pump yourself? The car isn't worth much as scrap, and won't sell for much in a non-running condition. If you're at all handy, you could give it a try. Even if you totally fail, the car will still be worth the same amount. Alternately, now would be a great time to involve the kids. I bought my first car when I was 15, and it didn't run either. Making it run again was a fun father/son project and a great learning experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red92 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Also... alternator in 2004 cam seals and various belts in June 2009 radiator in March 2010 steering boot in September 2010 tires in November 2010 battery in August 2011 axle in August 2011 throttle switch in September 2011 starter in October 2011 We weren't happy that things seemed to be going wrong so often, but we kept telling ourselves each time that maybe this would be the last thing, I wouldn't worry at all about these repairs. Most of them are wear items or things which have a finite lifespan anyway (ie: tires, batteries, starters, belts, etc). If you drive the car regularly, then you *will* have to replace them eventually, and the same would hold true for any other used or new car you purchase. You can also rest easy knowing that every part you replace, is one less thing to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Fix it (at a different place). You'll never find a car you know as well for near that price. If you buy another used car you'll really be starting over. You'll want an older (read - less valuable) car for the kids anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 A legacy is a safe car to put your kids in when they first get their licenses. The 2.2l is pretty much bullet proof so even if your kids abuse it, it will get them home. Water pump and idler pulleys are a maintenance job. It should have been done when "cam seals and various belts in June 2009" were replaced, and it probably wasn't. That means those parts went 50k more then they were designed to. If the body isn't rusty, definitely fix it and have it for your kids to use. Put good liability-only insurance on it. When they back into a post/get into a fender bender (and they will), then you're not loosing a lot of money. Any older car will need occasional work, and all the work you had done on it should have been cheap. If it wasn't, and since the shop you go to is quoting $700 for a water pump, I suspect is wasn't, then you need to find another shop that charges reasonable rates. 150k miles is nothing for any car these days, even a Kia. Any shop that says a car is just about done at 150k is not in touch with reality. I just bought a 96 legacy with 285k on the odometer, and the guy I bought it from said the speedometer and odometer haven't worked for the last 2 years. He took it from Canada to Mexico and from California to Iowa and all points in between, so you know it has way over 300k on it by now. It still runs and drives great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
porcupine73 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 If you have a 2.2L I would definitely fix it. If it's the 2.5L and you didn't have the head gaskets done ever (unlikely) then I would consider it before having the water pump done. Especially if it did overheat and now the water pump leaks. Ideally, the water pump should have been replaced when the timing belt was replaced. Many of those items you listed such as tires, battery, etc., are really all maintenance items moreso than repair. You have to figure just about any used car is going to require some amount of repairs. Yes you'll hear people tell you about how their xyz car ran 200,000 with no repairs, but that is not the norm/average experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesFox Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Keep the car but find a different mechanic. A good mechanic would have fixed all these things at the same time. Why would he sell you a water ump a year after doing the timing belts when he should have done it then with the radiator so where you wont need toe work done now. 150,000 miles is considered low miles with the miles you can get out of the car. It is worth keeping. if the water pump is not leaking, ad the car does not overheat, it should last until 200,000 miles. You already had enough things fixed that there is nothing left to break. If you kept the car forever, and had regular maintnance like you have been, you can see over 300,000 miles easily. and the repair bills are still cheaper than monthly payments on a newer car that will still need work when it gets some miles. dont be afraid to get a basic tol set and take on some of the work yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbennett2u Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I agree I wouldnt completely trust the mechanics opinion especially if he thinks 150k miles is all you can get out of a subaru. 150k is pretty young for a Legacy with the 2.2 engine. Mine was reliable until I hit about 320k miles, things that are non maintenance related started failing pretty regularly then, but its still my daily driver at over 340k. Our impreza with the same engine runs like new with 190k. I'd fix it, but have the timing belt done at the same time, you can have the two maintenance items knocked out with the same amount of labor and parts for the belt job are cheap. The only concern I have is that you say "it runs (or, I should say, ran)" Water pump alone shouldnt affect how it runs unless it siezed and shredded the timing belt, or if it overheated severely. First case no big deal, second case is a big deal. This is a PERFECT car for young drivers. Sedate, roomy and surefooted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dude Abides Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 We have a 1996 Legacy L wagon with about 150,000 miles. Generally, it's been a great car. We've generally been very good about basic maintenance -for example, regular oil changes at around 3,500 miles, and it runs (or, I should say, ran) very well. Over the years we've had to replace things here and there, as you'd expect - for example, alternator in 2004. Over the past couple of years, though, more things have needed replacement - for example, cam seals and various belts in June 2009, the radiator in March 2010, steering boot in September 2010, tires in November 2010, battery in August 2011, an axle in August 2011, a throttle switch in September 2011, and the starter in October 2011. We weren't happy that things seemed to be going wrong so often, but we kept telling ourselves each time that maybe this would be the last thing, and none of them individually were killers financially. Plus, it was our only car. Now, though, it needs a new water pump, which my mechanic (I can't do it myself) thinks will be around a $700 job. We've gone ahead and bought another car, but we're trying to decide if we should repair the Legacy and keep it around as a semi-retired second car for use in a couple of years by my kids (now age 15 and 17). On one hand, if the car has life left in it, it would be perfect for them for short hauls to school, etc. and we wouldn't be able to get a replacement for $700 if we found ourselves needing a second car. On the other hand, we have no way of knowing if something else will just go wrong if we repair the water pump. My mechanic thinks we should not do the repair and instead just donate it or sell it for scrap or parts. Part of his rationale is that in his experience 150,000 miles is all you can reasonably expect from a Subaru. What do you think we should do? Thanks for any advice you can provide. 150k is nothing for these. As long as is driveable for your kids after its fixed go ahead and fix it. They are tanks and super reliable. You might need to be replacing wheel bearings at some point but i hear on the newer subarus it isnt that bad of a job. If you want to donate it though, you can donate it to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 cam seals and various belts in June 2009...... it needs a new water pump, which my mechanic (I can't do it myself) thinks will be around a $700 job. First - this is CLEAR evidence that your mechanic is incompetant. When replacing cam seals, belts, etc you ALWAYS replace the the $40 water pump. Because you are already right there. The cam seal leakage should have been a full timing belt/WP/seal job and you wouldn't be having this issue today. Further - a water pump job should cost no more than about half what he quoted. If nothing else is being changed (clearly that's his MO) - then it's about 3 hours labor total to change the pump. That should be no more than $350 even at dealer labor rates and considering the price of the pump. Part of his rationale is that in his experience 150,000 miles is all you can reasonably expect from a Subaru. What do you think we should do? Thanks for any advice you can provide. More CLEAR evidence that your mechanic is a blind fool. I have an engine in my garage right now that happily ran to 470k before loosing a rod bearing. You don't need a new car - you need a new mechanic. One thats going to treat you right, not rip you off, and do what's in your best interest not in the interest of having return business. I do this every day and I see it all the time. Same thing happened to my neighbor down the street - she had the timing belt done about 30k miles ago and the water pump wasn't replaced by her "mechanic" so here I am stuck telling her the bad news because of some damn fool's corner cutting and pocket lining. I HATE having to be the bearer of that kind of message and I fully blame the last mechanic for putting me in that situation. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal_look_zero Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 First - this is CLEAR evidence that your mechanic is incompetant. When replacing cam seals, belts, etc you ALWAYS replace the the $40 water pump. Because you are already right there. The cam seal leakage should have been a full timing belt/WP/seal job and you wouldn't be having this issue today. Further - a water pump job should cost no more than about half what he quoted. If nothing else is being changed (clearly that's his MO) - then it's about 3 hours labor total to change the pump. That should be no more than $350 even at dealer labor rates and considering the price of the pump. More CLEAR evidence that your mechanic is a blind fool. I have an engine in my garage right now that happily ran to 470k before loosing a rod bearing. You don't need a new car - you need a new mechanic. One thats going to treat you right, not rip you off, and do what's in your best interest not in the interest of having return business. I do this every day and I see it all the time. Same thing happened to my neighbor down the street - she had the timing belt done about 30k miles ago and the water pump wasn't replaced by her "mechanic" so here I am stuck telling her the bad news because of some damn fool's corner cutting and pocket lining. I HATE having to be the bearer of that kind of message and I fully blame the last mechanic for putting me in that situation. GD To go one step further on this, it's not Subi specific to do the water pump when you do the timing belt; it's common knowledge. Your guy is obviously a scam artist or a sheisty mechanic; maybe both. Simply put, any mechanic (professional or weekend warrior) worth his salt is familiar with WYAIT; While you're already in there. It's like pulling the engine to do a clutch job, and not replacing the rear main; while you're already in there. If I were in your position, I'd keep my eyes and ears open for who the "go to" guy in your area for Subi stuff is. If nothing else, try and find a local car forum, or even post an ad up on craigslist looking for one. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoodsWagon Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 It's like pulling the engine to do a clutch job, and not replacing the rear main; while you're already in there. Well, on subaru's you leave the rear main alone because they almost never leak, but you do reseal the rear oil separator plate, because they always leak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal_look_zero Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Well, on subaru's you leave the rear main alone because they almost never leak, but you do reseal the rear oil separator plate, because they always leak. Oh details details!:drunk: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Oh details details!:drunk: Do some searching and reading here. Often discussed. I'm one of the ones wh advises AGAINST replacing rear main. I've seen the backside of over 100 Subaru engines. ALWAYS reseal baffle plate. Only had to replace 2 rear mains. Know what they had in common? Both had been replaced before. I'm typically working with 95-99's with 110-190k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heartless Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 First - this is CLEAR evidence that your mechanic is incompetant. When replacing cam seals, belts, etc you ALWAYS replace the the $40 water pump. Because you are already right there. The cam seal leakage should have been a full timing belt/WP/seal job and you wouldn't be having this issue today. Further - a water pump job should cost no more than about half what he quoted. If nothing else is being changed (clearly that's his MO) - then it's about 3 hours labor total to change the pump. That should be no more than $350 even at dealer labor rates and considering the price of the pump. More CLEAR evidence that your mechanic is a blind fool. I have an engine in my garage right now that happily ran to 470k before loosing a rod bearing. You don't need a new car - you need a new mechanic. One thats going to treat you right, not rip you off, and do what's in your best interest not in the interest of having return business. I do this every day and I see it all the time. Same thing happened to my neighbor down the street - she had the timing belt done about 30k miles ago and the water pump wasn't replaced by her "mechanic" so here I am stuck telling her the bad news because of some damn fool's corner cutting and pocket lining. I HATE having to be the bearer of that kind of message and I fully blame the last mechanic for putting me in that situation. GD Cant say it any better than GD has already said, other than to add that my car is at 218K and going strong - the other half has one that has 262K and still runs like a top. . . heck, my car had 152K on it when i got it - to me, and a few others here, that is "barely broken in" mileage. so, IMHO, your "mechanic" is an idiot and a thief, & obviously knows NOTHING about Subaru longevity. It is quite common for the 2.2 to go for 300,000 plus If the car is in decent physical condition - little to no rust - then yes, keep it & fix it for the kids - even if it means a used motor if the current one was severely overheated. . . still better than trying to buy something else that is an unknown as far as maintenance history goes... that is my 10 cents worth - ultimately it is your decision to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbennett2u Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Not that we dont have enough responses already, but thought I should make another point... If you do decide you want something younger for your kids, Post it up for sale here and maybe craigslist rather then parting it or donating in a non running condition. With your maintenance history, low miles etc, it is probably worth a bit more than you expect it to be, especially to the subaru nuts on here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loyale 2.7 Turbo Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 ...150,000 miles is considered low miles with the miles you can get out of the car. It is worth keeping... Yes, absolutely! ... and very Low Miles for a SUBARU. ...show this to your "mechanic"... ... Great Photo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal_look_zero Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Do some searching and reading here. Often discussed. I'm one of the ones wh advises AGAINST replacing rear main. I've seen the backside of over 100 Subaru engines. ALWAYS reseal baffle plate. Only had to replace 2 rear mains. Know what they had in common? Both had been replaced before. I'm typically working with 95-99's with 110-190k. Ah, ok. Mine was seeping pretty well, but someone's been back there before. Makes sense. I'm replacing it all the same, might have better luck with a new one. Baffle plate was sealed with what appears to be bathroom silicone caulking; obviously it was leaking as well. /threadjack Yes, absolutely! ... and very Low Miles for a SUBARU. Great Photo! Thanks! Just rolled over 335k last night. Still runs like a top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Resealing the plastic plates does NOT work. There is no sealant known to man that will seal those things in the long haul. They have to be replaced with the steel/aluminium plates so they share a more similar expansion rate to the block. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cal_look_zero Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 Resealing the plastic plates does NOT work. There is no sealant known to man that will seal those things in the long haul. They have to be replaced with the steel/aluminium plates so they share a more similar expansion rate to the block. GD Yeah, I already have the metal one on there, another reason I know someone was back there at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkckekmk Posted December 12, 2011 Author Share Posted December 12, 2011 Thank you to all of you who responded to my question about whether or not to repair my 1996 Subaru. We ended up getting it repaired for about $550, it was the water pump, and there appears to be no other damage caused by overheating. So far, so good, and we hope to have the car for years to come. Again, thanks to everyone for your advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davebugs Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Good news. Thats what - about one car payment on a new car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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