ej22 with ej25 phase II heads

[kyle234]

in the hopes of finding an alternative to the rare ej22 phase II engines i tried to take an old ej22 block and bolt on the new sohc heads. i have done it successfully with the ej25 and the new heads but i thought it would be fun to try it with a 22 block. i measured all the clearances and it appeared like it was going to work.. the 22 i used had the big square cut out in the top of the piston.

 

at this point it is tough to tell if it worked. i did not hear the engine run before hand so believe it or not im hoping it IS a rod knock. i haven't diagnosed it yet but i will get back to you with the diagnosis.

[idosubaru]

i just pulled a Phase II EJ22 that had an older Phase I block in it, so it works for EJ22's.

 

i was told the block was bad and was going to do exactly like you said - install a Phase I EJ22 block in it (which i didn't know it already had in it but assumed it would work). turns out the timing tensioner sheared off and valves bent.

 

the Phase II EJ22 and EJ25 intake and exhaust valves have the same part numbers so while there are differences I doubt it matters.

 

i've also installed Phase II SOHC EJ25 heads on Phase I EJ25 blocks, use the thick 610 EJ25D headgasket.

[kyle234]

well thats really good to know. i only paid $100 for the old 22 with low mileage that why i thought it was tapping the valves on the piston.

 

i thought the cams where different and they where open for a longer duration and that would cause them to hit.

 

i guess i have to find a new block and try it again. thanks

[idosubaru]

well you might be on to something: this wasn't something I worked on but I talked to someone that installed Phase II heads onto a Phase I block (but I can't recall for sure - though I think his was all EJ25 stuff) and said the pistons were striking the heads "wham, wham, wham".

 

he said it had no noticeable interference when assembled and turning it by hand, it wasn't until they started it that it made the noises? i don't believe any "damage" was done but they could see the strike marks on the head when he pulled it apart.

 

again - that's from memory but it affected how i proceeded with mine....so onto mine....

 

that, combined with the fact that the shop resurfaced the heads beyond limits on the one I was working on, i knew i needed to account for that. i used the 610 EJ25 headgasket which is really thick and gave enough room that it didn't matter. i prefer that gasket anyway as it holds really well on the headgasket issue prone EJ25's.

 

there are companies like allwheeldriveauto and COMETIC that make custom gaskets and maybe they can get you a "thick" EJ22 headgasket to give you some extra room if needed?

 

i believe you're supposed to match the headgasket to the block because of the fire ring so you should probably be using an EJ22 headgasket, i don't know the efficacy of using an EJ25 headgasket on an EJ22 block, but would be nice if you could just use the thicker EJ25 headgaskets already avialable.

[kyle234]

yes ive done the old ej25 block with new heads that works for sure. ive picked up a couple newer cars with bad lower ends and its way cheaper to use the old block.

 

yeah you need to match the gasket to the block. i think on the phase II engines they used thinner gaskets to accomplish a higher compression ratio.

 

i'm thinking it is a rod because the car it came out of was hit head on and crushed one of the cams. maybe due an abrupt stop it tweaked a bearing. that and there is no noise at an idle and when you punch the throttle it starts going crazy but if you hold it at a steady rpm it becomes fairly consistent.

[idosubaru]

sounds like you're familiar enough to tell the difference, but sometimes they sound very similar:

 

i'm thinking it is a rod because the car it came out of was hit head on and crushed one of the cams. maybe due an abrupt stop it tweaked a bearing. that and there is no noise at an idle and when you punch the throttle it starts going crazy but if you hold it at a steady rpm it becomes fairly consistent.

take it apart and see. timing tensioners can sound like knock and only happen under load. they can sound strangely like rod knock. oil pumps can bleed off pressure too if the rear backing plate screws come too loose which is common and you're probably familiar with. folks have said this can generate a noise but i've never heard it yet, just seen the loose screws.

 

it's not piston slap is it?

 

the Phase II i just got and pulled was diagnosed by a mechanic as a bad bottom end and ended up being the timing tensioner knocking - this time because the bolt holding it in place was sheared off, not because the tensioner itself failed. it was wedged in place enough to still rotate and never gave out completely so it was allowed to turn over and make noise.

[kyle234]

its not piston slap mainly because the 22's dont get piston slap. they have a longer skirt which prevents it. and its way way to noisy to be piston slap.

 

i doubt its the tensioners i did the timing belt when i had it out and replaces all of them. thats very interesting tho i have never heard of that happening. to me it sounds like whoever did the timing belt last over tightened the pulley. they should be able to shear off.

 

and the rear baffle plate i soaked in ultra grey and resealed. i was tried to find a metal one but i had to settle for resealing those stupid plastic ones.

[idosubaru]

its not piston slap.

i figured you'd be familiar with that.

 

thats very interesting tho i have never heard of that happening. to me it sounds like whoever did the timing belt last over tightened the pulley.

right on, total long shot and seems like you'd tell the difference. i've seen it 3 times now, twice on older gen engines though and this was the first on an EJ.

 

not because this is what you have to deal with but just for jabbering sake....

 

i've seen a few failed tensioner pulley bolts. more than once i've seen a chunk of the block come out with the bolt too on XT6's! a guess is that the tensioners hydraulic mechanism can degrade and cause the pulley to "vibrate" or "bounce", which fatigues the bolt over time. i've seen them fail like that, where the tensioner is visually bouncing....so if one could fail "less" than that, but still vibrates - maybe it could fatigue the bolt? since i've seen them fail badly and it doesn't seem to happen on any of the other pulley bolts that seems somewhat plausible.

 

this one had a complete new timing kit installed, it was the first engine i've ever pulled apart and seen all new timing components.

[kyle234]

i haven't messed with the flat 6 before. didnt they change them to internal chain drive to make the engine fit in the engine bay of the flat 4's?

 

speaking of xt's one came up on craigslist. its and 86 turbo with bad head gasket for $500. worth it

 

when the pulley starts wobbling like that does it affect the way it runs. it seems like it might be able to throw of the timing just lightly maybe to cause a misfire?

[kyle234]

IT WORKS!! the noise went away. i think it was piston slap. the block sat for a while and a wrist pin got dry and sticky slamming the piston around. when it warms up there is no noise

[Caboobaroo]

Seems you know your Subarus so this will be easy for me to explain.

 

The XT6 had an ER27, which is an EA82 with two more cylinders, but still had 2 timing belts like the EA82.

 

The EZ30 flat 6 is the one you're thinking of. It has a timing chain setup and is roughly based on the EJ design.

 

As for a XT turbo, only if it's decent shape. Granted, it still has an EA82T in it but that can be swapped for an EJ20G, or an EJ257......