Diesel?

[subarulegacy]

So, I was driving home from work today and I suddenly had inspiration. What if my subaru had a diesel? I started thinking about it after seeing an old 80s mercedes diesel today. I love diesels, they last forever, and get good gas mileage. And since the future of my boxter is. . .uncertain (it gets me to work but i wouldn't drive it far), i thought I would throw the idea around. I have an uncle with a shop that could help me out with it (4 hours away) or my old auto tech class sometimes lets students/ former student bring stuff in. So, wouldn't hire a mechanic. I was thinking an old mercedes diesel, or something out of a vw. Not going to ship any subaru diesel from overseas. Any idea what it would cost in parts? Is it possible? I found a guy that put a buick v6 in one, so i would assume its possible. This would be in the future, so I can rebuild my savings account. . .to respend it on the car.

[AWDfreak]

I feel that you're better off importing the Subaru Boxer Diesel engine rather than swapping in a non-Subaru engine or converting your current Subaru engine to diesel. Regardless, it will be expensive.

 

But yeah, unlikely North America will get the diesel Subarus

[Rooster2]

I feel that you're better off importing the Subaru Boxer Diesel engine rather than swapping in a non-Subaru engine or converting your current Subaru engine to diesel. Regardless, it will be expensive.

 

But yeah, unlikely North America will get the diesel Subarus

 

I think it would be pretty impossible importing a Subie diesel. It would lack all EPA certification to get through customs. I don't know if Canada has Subie diesels, but if so, you could perhaps snare one from there. I am thinking you would need to identify it as a gasoline engine to get it through customs. That would prolly be much more trouble then it is worth, and I don't think I would want to break the law on a project like this.

 

I don't think converting a gas engine to diesel is practical. GM tried that back in the 80's, and it made for a non dependable engine. Just too much stress with the high compression ratio to get a non diesel designed engine to hold up.

[porcupine73]

It's definitely possible, these kinds of things are usually simply a question of time and money. It also requires skills, tools, etc but money can be substituted for those to get the services of someone who has them. If you have someone with fabrication skills that could be helpful.

 

I believe yours has an auto trans? That is probably going to be one of the trickier parts. To keep the TCU happy without any input from the ECU. Because for example when the TCU gives the torque cut signal to the ECU, it isn't going to do anything, unless you figure out some way to interface it to the diesel ECU (if it even has one; some of the older Mercedes and similar diesels didn't have any electronic control).

 

Your auto trans gearing might not be optimal for the diesel either; i.e. rather than looking at RPM's up to what 6000 rpm from the gaser, the diesels usually top out at 2500 rpm maybe depending on model? Auto trans might not hold the higher torque of the diesel at lower RPM's.

 

If you do it, it would surely be an interesting project!

[davebugs]

There are threads already here about Subaru's diesel which ISN'T coming here.

 

And folks selling Subaru Diesel engines here in the states.

 

My DD is a diesel, I'd love to see it.

 

But VW even only brings a small portion of their Diesels here because of all of our red tape.

 

Don't hold your breath.

[jarl]

Too many issues. Why don't you go V12 instead?

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2275426

[1 Lucky Texan]

maybe one of the small Isuzu diesel engines? Or from a tractor or genset? VW? Audi?

 

could be a fun project.

 

anyone done a propane conversion?

[Soobie-ruu]

i have done a propane conversion on my dads ea71

[weldersd]

I too have pondered this very question, I was thinking manual trans mated to a isuzu pup diesel motor, turbocharged. you would want the lowest gear possible in the rear-end/ trans final drive.

[cal_look_zero]

Yeah, way too much red tape for manufacturers to bring in extremely fuel efficient, low emissions, extremely long lasting diesel engines.

 

The government and oil tycoons would never allow it...

 

It was my understanding, that a lot of the japanese "racing" engines like the RB26DETT are brought through customs under a "for off road use only" type of transaction. Not to advocate undermining the nanny state's laws, but you could go about it that way.

[davebugs]

I'm feeling all fuzzy.

 

How much to spend on one toy?

 

Going today to look at a VW thing on a GEO Tracker(Suzuki) frame.

 

I hauled in a 2000 VW TDI tuesday that a kid screwed up the timing belt on and probably bent valves. Especially for the "crawlers" it appears a VW diesel into a Suzuki is somewhat of a common swap.

 

Seriousely doubt it's worth the time and money but potentially I could end up with a VW Thing/Tracker/VW Diesel AWD(yes AWD). I 'd have to believe it would be the only one!

 

THe Thing isn't cheap though

[subarulegacy]

Good point about the auto trans. Guess ill have to go to manual! I definetly prefer manuals over auto. I was driving a manual for a year before I got this and now it feels like the thing is driving me!!

[subarulegacy]

hmm heres a link I found - http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f145/diesel-swap-60513/ I find it somewhat depressing. . .

[ldeikis]

You might read THIS for some entertainment.

 

The VW > Samurai thing has been done enough that there's kits for it.

 

Putting in a TDI is going to be real tricky--in addition to major fabrication, finding a mechanical pump for a TDI is a needle in a haystack in the US. You need an early TDI engine and a pump that basically doesn't exist here. Most guys end up buying them on euro ebay. Swapping in a "modern" TDI, with associated electronics and engine management, is (IMHO) insane. You can find a pre TDI VW diesel in the states fairly easily, and 1.9 Turbos in Canada. You can also make a 1.6/1.9 franken that's fairly common in the niche of VW diesel performance (ha!). That engine revs higher and faster than either stock TD, at the expense of miserable cold-weather starting.

 

The biggest hangup is going to be addressing the gear ratios--if you swap in a VW transaxle, aside from huge amounts of fabricating, you give up your AWD. If you keep the suby transaxle, the gear ratio difference gas>diesel will stop you cold.

 

I second just getting a VW diesel if that's what you want. They made a passat quatro for a while (that didn't, to my knowledge, come diesel, but would be a fairly reasonable swap) and I've seen swaps of AWD hardware into older VWs, but it was a *major* swap that definitely wasn't justified by any kind of financial logic.

 

Luke (owning an old diesel rabbit and a 98 forester)

 

Ps-- as a rule, diesels run COLDER, not hotter, than a gas engine, despite needing heat to ignite the fuel. If somebody's rabbit was running hot, overheating, etc, it was because of mechanical engine issues or the gas trans/diesel engine combo. The old diesel rabbits are crude beasts, but they run like clocks.

[Fairtax4me]

I love diesels, they last forever, and get good gas mileage.

Diesels get awful gas mileage. They pump it straight out the tail pipe un-burned.

They get great fuel mileage though.

Sorry, Had to.

[davebugs]

I own 3 MKIV TDI's at the moment. So I'm rather firmiliar with them. My 01 Golf I bought new and is ready to turn 200k.

 

Can't bring myself to pull the trigger on the thing. Whish is the only body style I'd like to add to my air cooled collection(I have 6 from early 60's to the last year convertible).

 

The tracker conversion was done well and the driveline only has 16k on it.

 

It is a butt ugly green inside and out.

 

I did some Google searching and on thesamba with really no luck on this thing/tracker conversion. Perhaps I was guessing keywords wrong.

[rverdoold]

Diesel seems a fair idea concerning high MPGs but many modern diesels which are sold here in Europe at the moment have one main problem! The one-and-only thing that matters now in the EU is CO2 emission, so manufactures make diesels smaller and using turbos to get a more efficient burn. However they also want to reduce weight so they remove as much casting (alu no iron anymore) as is possible. Result: many VW diesels have cracked heads both with big and small displacement (1.2 1.4 and 2.0). And that after only 100k KM. Diesels don't necessary run that long anymore. Yes they have good MPG but that is it. Of course there are manufactures who did not really join the european CO2 emission war such as subaru. That is why the sales here in Holland are so bad, it is because the tax of the car on purchase is CO2 emission based. But those are the numbers given by the manufactures (so each company needs a good Lobyist in the government).

 

I assume your basic motivation for converting to a diesel is the high MPG = low running costs. But you must include your conversion costs as well.

 

Is it easy to get CNG or LPG over there? This conversion is suitable for almost all non turbo subaru boxers, takes 1 day to convert and you can run either gasoline or LPG if it is not available. Using all standard components. Over here LPG is about 1/3 of the price of 1 liter gasoline while I get about 25 MPG on LPG and 32 MPG on gasoline with a 1.6 impreza awd MT.

[1 Lucky Texan]

where I live, seems like diesel costs 20% more than gas. So, where's the savings?

[davebugs]

where I live, seems like diesel costs 20% more than gas. So, where's the savings?

 

PA is bad about diesel tax, it's about the same here. Until the past year or so it used to average about mid grade gas. Used to actually be cheaper than RUG in the fall.

 

About 1/3 better mileage. Simpler engines (no plugs/wires/etc) and longevity that far exceeds a gas engine.

 

On my DD an auto I average 38-40 MPG including with winter diesel. Other than timing belt every 100k and nromal fuel and air filters my "repalcement parts" is a very short list. I've redone suspension bushings and stuff to get the superior handling back.

 

But as far as repairs an oil pressure sending switch at like 150k, 2 glow plugs and a glow plug harness(50 bucks). Not bad for 220k and I really do think it's half way through it's life. The early 2000's VW auto's are wimpy (o1m family) and I just had to install a reman at 215k. The 5 speeds get 50 mpg. Remember VW's are heavy compared to all the jap cars - part of the reason they ride and handle so well.

 

So I've got I'd say 200.00 in repair parts in over 200k. Can't beat that with a stick! And after 150k I really consider most anything a maintenance item really.

 

Now that I drive maybe 15k a year the and with the diesel prices and mandatory biodiesel (not quite as evil as Ethanol) I don't know if I were to buy new now if it would be diesel personally.

 

Great traveling cars - 500 miles per tank - basically longer than your kidneys can last before stopping. The 5 speeds get 600 miles per tank.

 

WIth all that low end torque very fun to drive.

 

If Subaru ever gets their Diesel here or VW offers an affordable AWD Diesel I'll own one!

[1 Lucky Texan]

PA is bad about diesel tax, it's about the same here. Until the past year or so it used to average about mid grade gas. Used to actually be cheaper than RUG in the fall.

 

About 1/3 better mileage. Simpler engines (no plugs/wires/etc) and longevity that far exceeds a gas engine.

 

On my DD an auto I average 38-40 MPG including with winter diesel. Other than timing belt every 100k and nromal fuel and air filters my "repalcement parts" is a very short list. I've redone suspension bushings and stuff to get the superior handling back.

 

But as far as repairs an oil pressure sending switch at like 150k, 2 glow plugs and a glow plug harness(50 bucks). Not bad for 220k and I really do think it's half way through it's life. The early 2000's VW auto's are wimpy (o1m family) and I just had to install a reman at 215k. The 5 speeds get 50 mpg. Remember VW's are heavy compared to all the jap cars - part of the reason they ride and handle so well.

 

So I've got I'd say 200.00 in repair parts in over 200k. Can't beat that with a stick! And after 150k I really consider most anything a maintenance item really.

 

Now that I drive maybe 15k a year the and with the diesel prices and mandatory biodiesel (not quite as evil as Ethanol) I don't know if I were to buy new now if it would be diesel personally.

 

Great traveling cars - 500 miles per tank - basically longer than your kidneys can last before stopping. The 5 speeds get 600 miles per tank.

 

WIth all that low end torque very fun to drive.

 

If Subaru ever gets their Diesel here or VW offers an affordable AWD Diesel I'll own one!

 

 

I can't argue with your experience (and the point about torque is good, especially for towing), and I'm not a diesel hater (I'd definitely get a diesel pick-up if I towed regularly), but I think plenty of people experience engine longevity and many of the other things you mention with gas. Might not have spark plugs(which can last over 60K now - maybe 100K miles), but there are glowplugs right?(maybe not anymore - dunno) Plus the better availability of gas, perhaps less engine noise.

 

There's room for both on the road - as with hybrids (diesel hybrid would be brilliant!) and electric. Dunno if you pay higher sticker price or not for comparable gas engine - but fuel savings should not be the primary consideration as it seems minimal. When I was younger, diesel was the cheapest fuel at the station, Now, it's often the most expensive.

[rverdoold]

There's room for both on the road - as with hybrids (diesel hybrid would be brilliant!)

 

Magic word combo: Diesel Hybrid

I really do not understand why VW or any other european manufacturer did not start to make those. Small diesel engine has superb MPG at constant speeds. Combine with an electromotor for starts.

Audi once made the A2 diesel, a mini MPV that holds 4 adults with no problem. FUlly constructed of alu. It was rated at 2.7 liters of diesel per 100 km on the highway!!!! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_A2)

But the sales were not that good, it was to far ahead of its time and production was stopped in 2005. I still love them but they are getting very expensive second hand.

[propane]

Rverdoold, would you have any pix of where the LPG tank is mounted? Or, explain where the tank is, and, is it integrated with the engine management system? Direct injection? or is it single port ?thx :cool:

And, to add further to the thread, what I heard was that the EPA catalytic requirement for diesel over shot the mark, and resulted in breaking the exhaust particles into too fine of size, which were too small for lungs to deal with, as compared to soot particles of unsmogged tail pipe emissions for diesels.

Edited January 11, 2012 by propane
further

[rverdoold]

The LPG tank (54 liters) is mounted instead of the spare tyre. I wanted a bigger tank (standard for impreza is 44 L) and therefore my floor was raised with 4 cm. The system has its own ECU and communicates with the car ECU. It is direct liquid propane injection using a common propane rail and piezo injectors just above the intake valves. Injection only occurs when that particular intake valve opens. Because I mostly drive alone or with my wife the spare wheel is behind the driver seat (it is this thin one), otherwise I leave it at home and kick mr. murphy out of the car or put it in the back. I can post some photos on request.

The main reasons are: it is cheaper and also cleaner compared to the gasoline or diesel. But road tax is now 780 euros per month compared to 460 per year, however 0.65 per liter for LPG compared 1.70 per liter. Shocking prices, only have to drive no 6000 km per year to be cheaper.

 

About the diesel filters, I think all diesels sold from 2008 in the EU have must have a particle filter. This unit collects the particles and burns them once in a while.

[lefty2053]

I own a 2000 Jetta TDI. I get an average of 48.5 MPG. 48Plus with the A/C running. If it was put in a little Subaru I am sure it would get at least 50MPG.

 

People are putting TDI motors in everything. Just remember a Diesel engine is a lot heavier than a gas engine of the same size. Mine is a 1.9 L. And the new ones are 2.0. There is also a V10 TDI in the Touareg which is the fastest Non Gasoline car to go to the top of Pikes Peak.

 

If a Timing belt goes bad you have to replace the heads. Total destruction.

Timing belts are good for 100k miles for the 2003 Belt kits and up. 60k Miles for older types.

My 2000 has 240K miles and runs like new. I expect to put one more Timing belt in it and that should last me to 380K miles.

Still has original front struts,Alternator,Starter and all the original front end parts.

[rverdoold]

I have driven many diesel cars. From VW caddy (small commercial car) with a 1.9 SDI (non turbo), very efficient but speed no. Best I liked the volvo v40 with a 1.9 turbo diesel, very fast when needed LOAADSS of torque but efficient when needed.

(not mentioning I had my driving lessons in a BMW 325TDI 6 cylinder rocket on wheels)

Diesels are nice to drive and the right brands have a good longevity as well. But I hope the future is as bright.