the sucker king Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Newly rebuilt ea81, brand new clutch, it slips. I let the cable out as far as I can and can barely get it in gear to test drive, still slips. I rechecked the pressure plate bolts, all torqued to 11 lbs. I do have a new cable waiting at dealership, probably can't pick it up till Monday, but I don't think that is the problem. I can't seem to float the gears on this thing, can anyone instruct me on that, would be good to take the cable off and drive it to rule out the cable. So if the cable is good, p-plate bolts are torqued proper, is there anything else to do before I pull this motor out? Only other things I can think of is rear main seal is leaking or the p-plate/clutch is a bad new unit or somehow the throwout bearing is not sitting right? Any advice before I pull this thing, I am very frustrated with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caboobaroo Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Just have to ask to rule it out.... Did you make sure that the clutch disc isn't in backwards? Been a few years since I did an EA clutch and don't remember if it's possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tractor pole Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Just have to ask to rule it out.... Did you make sure that the clutch disc isn't in backwards? Been a few years since I did an EA clutch and don't remember if it's possible. I think the pressure plate side of the clutch disk would hit the flywheel if you put it in backwards, from what I remember when I did the clutch in my EA two weeks ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the sucker king Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 Yes, clutch is in correct. Above post is correct, it can't really be put in backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowmastered87GL Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 Hopefully it does not come to this for you, but on my first 82 brat I had a problem like this. Brand new clutch kit (old flywheel that worked with the old clutch) It would BARELY move under its own power... like a snails pace. Everything checked out in spec. I ended up swapping in an 84 clutch setup and it magically worked. I tried removing the cable too. So try taking the clutch cable off (and make sure something is pulling on the fork like the hill holder or a return spring) to make sure the clutch is engaged. Try starting it in 1st gear (And be ready to turn it off really quick) and see if it lurches. My brat wouldnt even lurch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6 Star Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 When I put the engine in my Brat I also had a new clutch. (small '82 style) I had to adjust the clutch fork ALL the way back. I'm talking almost to the end of the threads on the cable. Any less than that and it wouldn't go into any gear while running. Starting it in gear with the clutch to the floor only made the car lurch. Its just happy being all the way back for some reason. :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Sounds like a bad pressure plate or incorrectly stepped flywheel. Did you have the flywheel resurfaced? Improper surfacing of stepped flywheels does happen occasionally if the machinist doesn't understand that they have to cut both the friction surface as well as the PP mounting surface. The step height needs to be .905" IIRC on the EA81's. If they made the flywheel too deep it will not grab properly. Having to let the cable out all the way to the tip of the threads is an indication that the PP is not clamping the disc properly. The PP fingers should be almost flat when it's torqued down to the flywheel. If the flywheel is too deep then the fingers will be raised and that will push the clutch fork forward and cause the cable adjustment to be way out at the end - and of course it will slip also because the PP isn't under enough tension to grab the disc. GD Edited January 7, 2012 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zukiru Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 I have the issue gd described to a much lesser degree. I only mildly refinished the flywheel and forgot the raised step. Clutch grips fine for now but I have no adjustment left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the sucker king Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 ok I managed to hook up with the dealership, I put a new cable in and as I suspected, it aint that. And I should clarify- I can do more than a crawl with the car, but when I punch it it slips-badly. But I have been able to take it on the road to drive it. So- I did NOT have the flywheel resurfaced, I just cleaned it up with a rotary tool. Is "step" the measurement from the front surface of the flywheel (the crank side) to the mating surface (clutch side)? So in otherwords if a flywheel was resurfaced too deep, The step would be a lower number than spec? Is it then a fact that too many times resurfaced renders a flywheel useless? I do not know the history of this flywheel, if it is the one that was on the engine that I gave to the rebuilder(never had problems with that one), or if it was swapped for another at some point. Where to go from here- I guess at this point I am pulling the engine and barring evidence of oil leaking out the rear main seal (I have had this happen before and it felt about like this), next step would be to measure the step of the flywheel. If the step is correct, get another clutch kit. Does that sound about correct? and for what it's worth, with a new cable installed to the point where the pedal felt right, there was about 3/4" cable beyond the locking nut. I also backed it out to about 1/2" showing and had no pedal at all, had to grind it into reverse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 The step measurement is from the PP mounting surface to the friction surface. So if the step is too large it will slip - larger number means step is too deep. The EA81 step should be (IIRC) .906". EA82 step height is shorter at .815" so a pressure plate for an EA82 would grip poorly on a stock cut EA81 flywheel. Could you possibly have put an EA82 PP in it? Could just be a weak PP also. Wouldn't be the first one I've seen. Either way you are pulling the engine to find out. Typically when I tighten the clutch cable there is about 1.5" to 2" of thread past the lock nut. But that's a general rule. If it's slipping and you have slack in your cable (you can push it toward cabin with your hand) then you don't have a cable problem. The problem is on the inside. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the sucker king Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 ea82 PP? anything is possible. It was all one kit, and the throwout bearing was for an ea81. I did have to send back the first kit they gave me though as it was for a ea71 or a 2wd ea81. So a ea82 pp would bolt up? what about the disc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6 Star Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Sounds like a bad pressure plate or incorrectly stepped flywheel. Did you have the flywheel resurfaced? Improper surfacing of stepped flywheels does happen occasionally if the machinist doesn't understand that they have to cut both the friction surface as well as the PP mounting surface. The step height needs to be .905" IIRC on the EA81's. If they made the flywheel too deep it will not grab properly. Having to let the cable out all the way to the tip of the threads is an indication that the PP is not clamping the disc properly. The PP fingers should be almost flat when it's torqued down to the flywheel. If the flywheel is too deep then the fingers will be raised and that will push the clutch fork forward and cause the cable adjustment to be way out at the end - and of course it will slip also because the PP isn't under enough tension to grab the disc. GD There is no slippage in my clutch... Could it be that my clutch cable isn't routed correctly? Or the hill holder cable? My flywheel was surfaced on both surfaces before reinstall. Also the pressure plate fingers were very flat looking in appearance when tourqed. Sorry, not trying to hijack... :-\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 ea82 PP? anything is possible. It was all one kit, and the throwout bearing was for an ea81. I did have to send back the first kit they gave me though as it was for a ea71 or a 2wd ea81.So a ea82 pp would bolt up? what about the disc? EA82 PP would bolt up but takes a larger T/O bearing. It would work at first though. The EA82 disc has the wrong spline count so it's unlikely they gave you the wrong "kit". I've had the wrong parts in the "right" kit before though.... GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 There is no slippage in my clutch...Could it be that my clutch cable isn't routed correctly? Or the hill holder cable? My flywheel was surfaced on both surfaces before reinstall. Also the pressure plate fingers were very flat looking in appearance when tourqed. Sorry, not trying to hijack... :-\ Fork could be bent, aftermarket cable, wrong cable, poor fitment on the pedal end, etc. Lots of reasons for strange adjustment issues. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the sucker king Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 GD where can I double check your memory on the step of the pplate? My FSM and Bentlys does not have it, and I would like to actually measure it out when I pull it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the sucker king Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 For the record- I had my guy check the specs and .906" is correct. I'm pulling the engine tonight and we'll see what's going on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the sucker king Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Okay I got it out and I measured the step at several places around the flywheel and have measurements ranging from .905 to .913, with .909 showing up the most frequently. I am assuming that 3/1000 to 7/1000 of an inch too deep should not be enough to make the clutch slip this badly (or am I wrong?) and the p plate must be bad. I suppose it wouldn't kill me either to get the flywheel properly turned. Any more comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Yeah that sounds fine on the flywheel - I would say you have a bad pressure plate. If you can source an Exedy that's how I would go. But last time I checked I wasn't able to come up with a proper Exedy clutch kit for the 225mm EA81 application. Another way you can go is to switch to the EA82 flywheel, use an EA82 pressure plate with the EA81 disc you already have and a Nissan 720 pickup throw-out bearing (fits the EA81 holder). How does the diameter of the hole in the PP fingers compare to the diameter of your EA81 T/O bearing? If the bearing barely touches the fingers then they put an EA82 PP in your kit. GD Edited January 10, 2012 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the sucker king Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 How does the diameter of the hole in the PP fingers compare to the diameter of your EA81 T/O bearing? If the bearing barely touches the fingers then they put an EA82 PP in your kit. GD Yes, BARELY touches. It's a sachs kit, and the P plate is labeled SC475 , which is the right plate for an ea81 (as best I can research), so maybe it is labeled wrong. All that other stuff is good to know, but easiest for me at this point to just replace the wrong stuff that I have. I'll ask my parts guy to seek out the Exedy kit. Any others? I've used beck arnley and sachs in the past without any issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miatadude Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 +1 on the resurfaced flywheel. I have seen this happen in several different vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Yes, BARELY touches. That's enough evidence for me - you DO have an EA82 pressure plate. Someone at Sachs has screwed the pooch. A proper EA81 PP should have fingers that describe a circle 1/4" smaller diameter than that of the TOB. The bearing should contact SOLIDLY away from the tips of the fingers. Beck Arnley should be good. Exedy is THE best for all Subaru applications but like I said I can't find a part number for a 225mm EA81 kit anymore. Sachs might be using Exedy as an OEM and that could be part of the problem. B/A might have the same issue.... I don't know. This stuff is getting all F'd up by the parts suppliers. If it were me I would find an EA82 flywheel, resurface it, and change to the Nissan TOB. The EA82 PP is stronger anyway and you already have it. For the cost of a used flywheel, resurface and a $35 TOB you could be down the road. Could also have the EA81 flywheel cut to the .815" step spec.... and use the Nissan TOB. Then it will simply work. Less than .1" and a new TOB away from clutching perfection.... GD Edited January 10, 2012 by GeneralDisorder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the sucker king Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 If it were me I would find an EA82 flywheel, resurface it, and change to the Nissan TOB. The EA82 PP is stronger anyway and you already have it. For the cost of a used flywheel, resurface and a $35 TOB you could be down the road. Could also have the EA81 flywheel cut to the .815" step spec.... and use the Nissan TOB. Then it will simply work. Less than .1" and a new TOB away from clutching perfection.... GD Alright this is food for thought. For now I am going to bed pizzed off and will lnto these options tomorrow. Just to clarify GD- you have DONE this with the Nissan throwout bearing and ea82 p-plate ON AN EA81 WITH A DUAL RANGE 4 speed tranny and it is a better set up. Correct? This is not something that you have just measured out and "it should work according to my calculations", right? I am not doubting what you say, I just want to clarify that you have done this and it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the sucker king Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 oh and thanks for the help and goodnight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I have had the EA81 flywheel's resurfaced to the EA82 step spec and used the EA82 PP (with an EA82 transmission) - it works great. I have *seen* the Nissan TOB installed on the EA81 bearing holder and I have looked at the specs of both bearings - they have an identical ID and both fit on the same cast TOB holder. I know someone that used this setup for a 4 speed behind a Hi-Po EA81 with an XT6 clutch (same as the EA82 PP) and it worked great. The Nissan unit is an identical design to the EA81 TOB - it's got the same ID and fits the same holder. It just has a larger OD and contacts the PP fingers more securely. You could use the EA81 TOB you have now but wouldn't it be nice if it were a bit larger? That's what the Nissan unit will give you. You can view pictures and specs of both bearings on www.rockauto.com if that would make you more comfortable. Also - I wouldn't tell you to do it this way if it wasn't going to work. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralDisorder Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 oh and thanks for the help and goodnight. No problem. Glad to help. I know how it feels when things go sideways and I want to see that beautiful hatch of your's on the road. GD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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